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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Heat treating cast parts from a kit (Read 1612 times)
Bnelson
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #30 - Jan 7th, 2026 at 8:55am
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Bob-I agree with most of what you are saying.  I've been doing my own case hardening/coloring for a few years now.  With the help of some others, I dabbled into it for a while, and did a bunch of various tests to learn more.  What I found to work for me is that I stay well below critical temp and soak there.  After a while, the temp can be reduced to minimize any possible warping prior to quenching.  I have never had any real issues with warping. What I did find out is that the water needs to be free from hardness and you want to keep the time the parts are in air before quenching to absolute minimum.  If the water is wrong or the parts are in the air too long, you will get hardness but no color at all.   

As far as 4140 goes, John Gillette from Classic Guns in Illinois showed me boxes of revolver frames and other pieces in 4140 that he case colored/hardened.  They were very hard at the surface, but had beautiful colors.  It seemed like he kept the soak time to a minimum to keep the hardness at the surface.   
Bruce
  
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Logan
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #31 - Jan 7th, 2026 at 10:20am
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What is done if the parts warp? Anneal them, straighten and try again?
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #32 - Jan 7th, 2026 at 10:43am
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bobw wrote on Jan 6th, 2026 at 11:54pm:
Al once told me that there are folks that do coloring without case hardening.  
He said his is always color case hardening. Don’t know who he was referring to.
Bob


Al said that he's had some original actions that for whatever reason didn't take color case hardening regardless of the fact he did them exactly as he always has. One recent cast #2 Ballard he did for a friend of mine came out gray, and Al took it to C Sharps and they colored it without hardening it. They used a chemical process that was very impressive when I saw the results. Couldn't tell it from real bone charcoal color case hardened finish.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #33 - Jan 7th, 2026 at 10:45am
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Logan wrote on Jan 7th, 2026 at 10:20am:
What is done if the parts warp? Anneal them, straighten and try again?


I think if parts warp the person doing the case hardening did something wrong. Guys who've done it for years know how to without warping parts.
  

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Logan
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #34 - Jan 7th, 2026 at 11:30am
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Marlinguy,

That seems reasonable. Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I’m still slightly confused. If the hammer and breech block need to be heat treated, how are they rust blued? Can you rust blue after case hardening?

Logan
  
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2152hq
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #35 - Jan 7th, 2026 at 12:29pm
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If parts warp,,and they do inspite of what the purveyors will say,,
Many can be 'straightened'
by simple but well educated strikes with a lead hammer.
Most of the parts can be straighten.

Marlin used a small 'jack' to open up the bolt slot on L/A's.
A simple tool that just worked as a nut unscrewing the bolt can be used to do the same. 
A wedge and hammer can be used as well.
My experience is with the former

Some heavy or very fragile parts will need to be annealed and then re-worked back to straight. Doesn't always work out.

It is a far less common issue today than it was 30+ yrs ago when some started seriously doing CCH.
But we did more than I like to remember!

Much better understanding and control these days for sure.
  
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steel-pounder
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #36 - Jan 7th, 2026 at 5:43pm
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parts can be case colored without being hardened, parts can also be hardened without being case colored. 

carbon diffusion into Iron is approximately .020 inches per hour at 1700 degrees f., however this is not a hard fast rule and numerous factors can change this rate. alloying elements are a big factor. steel with a carbon content below roughly .25% will not harden to any significant level if any at all

     if a part is not quenched at or above the critical temperature for the alloy it is made from it will not get any degree of  hardness. 

soaking at or above critical then letting cool to below critical before quenching will still not cause any degree of hardness. but will form a high carbon layer on the surfaces that were in contact with the carburizing medium. 

case colors are simply layers of oxides on the surface of the parts in question. carbon content and alloying elements of the part does effect the color intensity.

packing a part in charcoal or any carbon rich medium and soaking at a high enough temperature allows carbon from the charcoal to be absorbed into the part. 

low carbon parts will tend to warp less than high carbon parts when case hardened.

the above is all science or physics the colors achieved whether case colored or color case hardened seems to be some sort of voodoo that  can be almost controlled by some.
  
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Logan
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #37 - Jan 7th, 2026 at 7:29pm
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2152hq and steel-pounder,

Fantastic information, can a case hardened part be rust blued? I would think the hardened steel would be resistant to rust, making this difficult.

Logan
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #38 - Jan 7th, 2026 at 7:51pm
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Logan wrote on Jan 7th, 2026 at 11:30am:
Marlinguy,

That seems reasonable. Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I’m still slightly confused. If the hammer and breech block need to be heat treated, how are they rust blued? Can you rust blue after case hardening?

Logan


Yes, hardened parts can be rust blued, but the softer the parts are the easier to rust blue. Actually hot bluing is more of an issue with very hard parts, and the bluing can come out a dark purple color if you try to hot blue hardened parts.
How highly polished the parts are tends to make rust bluing tougher, and I've had guys I gave parts to for rust bluing tell me they needed to knock down the finish in order to get a decent rust bluing done.
  

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Logan
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #39 - Jan 7th, 2026 at 8:21pm
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Ahh ok, thanks Vall. So the factory would case harden everything then rust blue the parts they wanted? Just for the aesthetic appeal?

Logan
« Last Edit: yesterday at 11:12am by Logan »  
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marlinguy
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #40 - Jan 7th, 2026 at 8:31pm
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Logan wrote on Jan 7th, 2026 at 8:21pm:
Ahh ok, thanks Val. So the factory would case harden everything then rust blue the parts they wanted? Just for the aesthetic appeal?

Logan


The factory didn't harden typical casehardened parts as a normal practice. I think they simply hardened them vs. case color hardening them. Not all parts got hardened, but those that did either got color case hardened and left that way, or just hardened if they needed hardening and were going to be rust blued.

The nice thing about rust bluing is dissimilar metals wont show different colors when rust blued. I've had parts I needed to repair with weld work and then rust blue, and the welds are almost always harder metal, but don't show on rust bluing.
  

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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #41 - yesterday at 8:17am
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I found in the Lassen Color Casehardening class that the difference between color casehardening and just plain casehardening was merely letting the least little amount of air get to the parts between being dumped out of the charcoal packed crucible and hitting the quench water.

Timing was critical.  We had to pick the retort out of the oven with long tongs, and hold it with the tongs while someone else with their own tongs lifted off the lid.  You could see the remains of the scrap of paper we put in the top to take up the oxygen burst into flame at this point, and of course the charcoal surface starting to glow (and nothing had better be sticking out of it, either).  As soon as the lid was off, we swung the crucible overhead like that carnival midway bell-ringing setup and banged it, open end down, hard against the lid of the quench tank so the contents, still shielded by the charcoal packing, all came out in one mass and quickly slid through the hole in the top into the aerated icewater.

There would be a huge eruption of blackened steamy water and a chorus of "Ooohs" and "Ahhhs" from the appreciative crowd of students waiting to get their own crucibles out.

I had a rather elaborate hooked buttplate that stuck in the crucible and took a couple extra "bangs" to shake it out.  It came out of the quench as hard as the other parts but a uniform black color.  I'd gotten a similar black when rust bluing parts until I modified the Neidner formula with my special secret alchemy.
  
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Logan
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #42 - yesterday at 10:01am
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Bent,

Very interesting, why did the buttplate stick? Did you re-polish and try again?

Vall,

All that being said, what would you do? Send everything to Al and rust blue over the case color. Or. Send Al the parts I want case color hardened and source someone else to harden the parts I want blued, pretty much only the breech block. My hammer is factory so no worries there.

Logan
« Last Edit: yesterday at 11:12am by Logan »  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #43 - yesterday at 11:22am
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Logan,

No; I left it black.  still haven't attached it to a stock.

It would have required repolishing, reannealing and another packing in the crucible.  It was one of those Germanic types with the big lower hook and the hole at the apex for an acorn screw.  Got a little crossways in the crucible so the end of the hook and the top jammed against the sides.

It was just another part to take up room in a short crucible load.  By then we were running out of charcoal so I didn't want to waste any just to take up space.  We'd also raided the ice machine at the cafeteria so much that there was none left that afternoon.  Fortunately, it was summer and few students were there to eat.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Heat treating cast parts from a kit
Reply #44 - yesterday at 11:36am
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If your parts are 8620 I wouldn't even bother having them hardened. Unless some parts are wear parts like sears, triggers, or hammers that usually need to be harder. I personally would discuss this with Al as he's got far more decades of experience and knows the answers better.
As for nickel plating vs. Al's CCH, if it's a price question Al will always be cheaper, and faster turnaround too. If I send Al polished parts he CCH every day, and if the parts are ready for CCH he anneals them, and then CCH them the next day. So often I get my parts back in very quick turn around time, and very fair prices.
  

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