I’m considering chambering a gun I’m currently working on in the 
40-70ss.  I see there is a 40-70ss Shiloh which I assume is designed for a modern barrel of .408.  From what I understand the original usually used a paper patched bullet and don’t shoot as well using a lubed bullet.

Can anyone enlighten me on the original 40-70ss and the Shiloh version, the good, bad and ugly? 
Are they the same basic brass?  It looks like the Shiloh has a thicker rim but is that all?
Can both be made from 30-40 Krag brass?
What kind of issues will I run into using it?  I see folks getting along really well with it and others not so much.
Thanks
Bob

I can't speak for the Shiloh .40-70SS, but I shoot several old originals in this cartridge, plus a couple newly barreled chambered in recent years. All mine are in the .410"-.411" groove diameter and those old enough to have used paper patch bullets shoot extremely well with grease groove bullets still.
Mine are Rolling Blocks and Ballard rifles and have slower twist in the original barrels, but faster 16" or 14.5" twists in the rebarreled rifles. All loaded with grease groove bullets and shooting smokeless 4198 powder.

nuclearcricket wrote on Jan 27^th, 2025 at 4:12pm:


Very good point Sam! 
I got all my brass long before it became extinct!
If I was doing it today using a new barrel I'd go for the shorter chamber that uses .30-40 Krag or .303 British brass fire formed and loaded as is length. They get the same velocities, but with easily purchased brass at cheap prices.

As a shorter alturnative you may want to consider the 40-60 Maynard. Not posative but think that can be made from 303 brass. And from what I have seen its a very good cartridge. 
Sam

The first 2 pictures just support each other.  I'm showing them because the 40-70 is not in my book but the 40-65 is.

KFW looks like the Shiloh version was made so the .405 brass could be used, specs look like they are really close.  The Shiloh specs I am showing are from the 4D rental reamer info.

I assume you are sizing with the standard 40-70 die?
How is this cartridge performing?
Bob

Bob,  I've got this reamer if you want to borrow it.  One option is always to not run it all the way in, and turn the rim recess on the lathe if you want to use 30-40 to fireform.

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Bob, if it is of any help, the very first rifle I every built (circa 1980) was in 40-70-2.5" SS and for the build I bought an original Sharps paper patch cartridge which I still have. So here are the dimensions from that cartridge:
OAL: 3.278"
Bullet length: 1.131
Bullet diameter: over the patch .403"
Diameter case at mouth: .424"
Diameter at base: .454"
Rim diameter: .548"
Case length: 2.500"
Rim thickness: .069"

I don't know how these compare to the measurements listed above but at least you now have a base line to go from.

Thanks for all the information everyone, you never disappoint with the vast experience on this board!

Dave, that reamer looks nearly the same as the Shiloh reamer 4D has.  I will be talking with you as I get closer to chambering.  Thanks!

Luckily, somewhere around here, I have 50 .405 pieces of brass for sure.
Bob

During my first 3 years of shooting BPCR, I shot a 40-70 Sharps Straight built by Cody Ballard on a high wall rifle. It has a 16 twist Badger barrel and shot extremely well out to a thousand yards if I didn't go too overboard on choosing bullet length. I was loading 69 grains of Swiss 1-1/2 and .030" fiber wad. I ended up using a bullet at 1.42" long. A bullet length of 1.45" was too long and showed signs of tipping at 900 and 1000 yards.

If we could just get Starline to make up a batch of cases the length of the 405. They would be good for so many different calibers. I would certainly gobble up some.

Deadeye Bly wrote on Jan 28^th, 2025 at 4:46pm:



I don’t see the 405 listed on the web page.
Bob

bobw wrote on Jan 29^th, 2025 at 12:39pm:


I shoot all those in both 14.5" and 16" twist barrels, and can't see a difference at any distance I shoot. I also shoot a Pacific in .40-85 using those same bullets and it's a 1:20" twist and shoots them great. I'd not bother with a fast 14" twist again as I don't think the cartridge needs it.

For what it is worth, I had an Axtell 1877 with a sporter weight barrel and wanted to make a target rifle out of it. In those days, Green Mountain was getting in making a lot of BPCR barrels and trying to get going in the market. They sent me a trial barrel 40-14.5 twist and it was installed and chambered 40-70SS for the 405 brass. I had trouble finding an accurate, reliable match load for it until I tried a long, heavy Hoch 440 grain bullet. Then it shot great but I learned I wasn't really a sharps guy. 
I also had an original 1885 highwall 32-20 that came off a farm and was used up. On the recommendation of the DanT I got a 13 twist Lilja 40 cal barrel and had the same reamer chamber this rifle too. 
Short story long, soon after, I thought I had made a big mistake going with that fast twist. That rifle acted like it wanted to shoot but just never was trustworthy to shoot a match string and not have a shot or two disappoint. 
After much much blood, sweat, tears, powder and lead, I tried Buffalo Arms heavy 464grain 40 cal Creedmoor in it and that rifle really came alive! 
Now, I can't keep my hands off it. It is accurate with no bad habits! It has become my go to rifle for silhouette and midrange. 

On a different subject, Bob asked about twist rates of the old rifles....
I have an old Hepburn 40-70 SS that needs a stock and the barrel is not in great shape but I can at least check the twist in it if that would be of interest.

Thanks for the additional information CW and LD1.

LD1, I don’t know much about paper patching but would your gun be chambered for it with those specs?

Hi Bobw
My rifle came to me as a barreled receiver with a missing tang. I put it back together with parts gathered all over this  country, barrel is 30.5 inches long 
Tapered octagon 1.25 at the rear and tapering to 1.125 at the muzzle, bore looks like a sewer pipe with rifling. Wally Springer RIP gunsmith told me that most buffalo hunters pissed down the bore to flush out the black powder fouling as up in this country there is very little water that was drinkable.
The only way I got this Sharps to shoot fairly well was to drop a lubed .413 bullet into the chamber followed by a shortened 30-40krag case that was tight against the bullet, it would hold a 4 inch group a 100 yds. 
I've been following you on your Hepburn build, very nice work!!!
Later LD1