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Hypo5.0
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Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Oct 2nd, 2024 at 6:25pm
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I would like to know your thoughts on this subject. Years ago when I was shooting handgun silhouette and casting for 7mm TCU, I believe I remember dropping the cast boolets into a 5 gallon bucket of water to (?) harden them?? Is hard cast just the lead / tin ratio difference ?
I have a Contender 14" in 45 Win mag and thinking about taking a Iowa deer with it. I'm thinking a 285 - 300 grain would would do the job? Thoughts?😎
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #1 - Oct 2nd, 2024 at 7:30pm
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Hard casting by dropping into water only works if you have antimony in the alloy and a touch of arsenic.

Secondly if you are hunting you DO NOT want hard bullets.

The bullets mushrooming cause more damage and increases your kill ratios when using cast bullets.

For the approrpriate mushrooming of the bullet you need soft alloys of 20:1 or down to almost pure lead.

Secondly the hard bullets do not seal as well and gases cut aroung the bullet causing leading or pressure variations between loads reducing your accuracy.

Hard bullets are well accepted for handguns but are not as useful in rifles and definitely not to get the best performance of the bullet impacting the animal.
« Last Edit: Oct 3rd, 2024 at 8:41am by Schuetzendave »  
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Hypo5.0
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #2 - Oct 2nd, 2024 at 7:44pm
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So the hard cast terminology means contains antimony and quenched in water ? The 7 TCU was mostly cast with wheel weights 30+ years ago so not sure if they contained antimony back then. I agree that I don't want a hard bullet but wasn't sure what constitutes " Hard Cast "
  
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jhm
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #3 - Oct 2nd, 2024 at 7:51pm
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There is a "Brinnel" scale that will give you the hardness of a given piece of lead. At least I think it is Brinell... Anyway there is a scale that gives hardness levels.



JMH
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #4 - Oct 2nd, 2024 at 8:52pm
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BHN:

Pure lead: 5.0
40:1 lead:tin: 8.0
30:1 lead:tin: 9.0
20:1 lead:tin: 10.0
10:1 lead:tin: 11.0
water quenched WW: 18.0

WW: 1/2-1% tin (Sn), 2-3% antimony (Sb), 96.0% - 97.25% lead (Pb), 1/4% arsenic
« Last Edit: Oct 3rd, 2024 at 8:37am by Schuetzendave »  
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jhm
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #5 - Oct 2nd, 2024 at 10:10pm
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Thanks schutzendave for the help!


JMH
  
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BudHyett
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #6 - Oct 2nd, 2024 at 10:11pm
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When I lived in Illinois, there was a scrap yard in Genoa, Illinois that mixed a 94% Pb, 4% Sb, 2% Sn alloy that worked well for many uses. The owner was selling this in two-ton lots and we were able to buy the overrun of a lot. Unfortunately, he has retired and closed the scrap yard.

Dropped into ice-cold water, the bullets hardened to 20 to 22 Brinell which is linotype hardness. These were shot mainly for both rifle and pistol competition.

As cast, they were 14-15 Brinell which worked well for most informal pistol and rifle shooting.
  

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Hypo5.0
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #7 - Oct 3rd, 2024 at 6:12am
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Thanks to all for the information, much appreciated.
  
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gnoahhh
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #8 - Oct 3rd, 2024 at 8:24am
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In the world of commercial purveyors of lead bullets who service the mis-guided souls who can't/won't cast their own, "hard cast" has come to mean anything from 13-22bhn. There's no industry standard. They sell a lot because the misinformed public who dotes upon jacketed bullets intuitively think that "harder has got to be better" and trick themselves, mostly, when they seek out cheaper alternatives.
  
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Ranch13
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #9 - Oct 3rd, 2024 at 9:47am
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The 45 winchester doesn't do much of anything that the 45 colt +p won't do.
So if you cast your own using 16-1 or 20-1 alloy would work just fine 
If you're buying commercial cast, then look for them cast from basically the same thing as Lyman #2.
  
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beltfed
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #10 - Oct 3rd, 2024 at 10:27am
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Hypo5.0
Your alloy goes not Have to be soft, though it can be ok 
in maybe 16+1 or 20+1. Remember that at high velocities,
you may get leading. In this event, use a gas check style bullet.

 The larger bore bullets such as you can shoot in that 45 Win Mag T/C will work just fine for your deer hunt.  Your bullet is already 45 cal, and will act like an expanded
smaller caliber 
Suggest you select a bullet in that 250 or so weight that has a Large flat nose.   
I have shot a number of large Wi deer with my M86 45-70
with a 385 gr Flat Nose gas check bullet at 1740fps.
It is very effective. One shot one Kill on all of them. They do not go far. If you must, say in a crowded area, to "drop them on the spot" , you can take a shoulder shot. The deer will be down "right now" and, with the medium hard No 2 level bullet
will not explode and will not blood shot much meat. 
Tha alloy can be like Lyman No 2 which has 90% lead, 5% Antimony and 5% tin.   
My alloy of choice is 90% COWW/10% Lino.  About the same hardness as the Lyman No 2

beltfed/arnie
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #11 - Oct 3rd, 2024 at 11:37am
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Hard cast bullets always have more tin in them, and most people don't find any need for bullets harder than 1:15 mix, and many shoot 1:20 mix.
For the majority of shooting those are great ratios, but for my heavy bullets I shoot at longer 500 yd.-1000 yd. distances I cast at around 1:13 mix to avoid bullet slump. These bullets seal just fine if properly sized to my groove diameter. I cast at .001"-.002" over groove diameter and I don't get any leading in my bores.
The old Creedmoor shooters actually cast their bullets at 1:11 ratio, but they were also shooting paper patched bullets, so not the same as grease groove bullets. They were only concerned with bullet slump and not leading the bore with patched bullets.
  

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Hypo5.0
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #12 - Oct 3rd, 2024 at 8:19pm
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Thanks for all the additional information and recommendations. Think I'll just cast up about 50 - 75 250 grain flat nose out of 20-1 , sight it in and go sit in the woods. I purchased some 255 grain Underwood " Hard Cast " off ammo seek to get some reloadable brass to start this project started.
  
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Mal
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Re: Cast vs " Hard Cast "
Reply #13 - Oct 4th, 2024 at 6:42pm
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Many moons ago I shot a lot on 45 auto and 38 spec. In a service match here in OZ ,I used what I called depleted Lino, scrap from the printers. 20 brin. Very accurate 2” groups@ 50 (ransom rest) a tricked up Gold Cup. Feed flawlessly .No leading (alox lube). Cheers Mal in au.
  
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