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Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Jul 6th, 2024 at 3:05pm
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A topic from the ASSRA Match Scores forum, under the subject "Stars & Stripes Schuetzen Range - Spokane, WA 2024" where:

Schuetzendave wrote on Jun 30th, 2024 at 3:41am:
Tommy Mason introduced intensive benchrest competitions for those wishing to improve their skills to become International Schuetzen Benchrest Champions.

To have the correct balance of light for your eye you need to adjust your sights as sunlight intensity changes when intercepted by clouds or as the sun goes up or down.

Rule of thumb: Sunlight is up - you need to adjust your sights up - raise the point you are aiming at to continue to have the appropriate point of aim.

How would a brighter target (more sunlight on it) require a higher point of aim?

(unless we're also adding mirage to the situation)...
  
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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #1 - Jul 6th, 2024 at 3:22pm
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The point of aim changes depending on the amount of light received. 

Light has a couple of effects. 
It can effect the amount and appearance of mirage, causing contrasting bullseyes to start to wave and almost melt. 
This can cause you to not be aiming in the true center of the target.

Understanding the relationship between your Point of Aim (Center of your reticle/sights) and Point of Impact (where the bullet hits) is crucial if you want to hit your intended target. 
The bullet's impact is not always where the sights are aimed (changing up or down depending on a change in amount of light received by your eye) because the refraction of light changes with light intensity.

When the sun gets brighter I have learned to increase my elevation setting by 1/8 to 1/4 MOA and when the light gets darker I have learned to decrease my elevation setting by 1/8 to 1/4 MOA.

Week long competitions may be won by a single point. 
Missing an adjustment for changes in light intensity can cost you winning a competition.

Many people feel it is only due to the reflection of the light on the post.

No it also affects your point of aim using an aperture sight as well.
« Last Edit: Jul 6th, 2024 at 3:40pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #2 - Jul 6th, 2024 at 3:27pm
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I have read that this is really only an big issue with a 6 o'clock hold with a post front sight as the bull appears larger.  That said, I did an experiment one that I plan to repeat where I set up a targetspot scope on a tripod and aimed it at a point on my neighbors house and recorded the crosshair's position under different lighting conditions.  It wandered all over the place.  I need to repeat the test but not look through a window.
  

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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #3 - Jul 6th, 2024 at 3:55pm
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Your eyes see no objects, you eyes, only see light that is reflected. In a dark room you can see nothing, right? The only time you can see anything is when a light reflects off of a object. 

This also holds for using a scope. Your aiming at reflected light, not the actual object, that is the target. Mirage does the same thing, it is the light moving, being bent by the heat waves, not the target moving.
  

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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #4 - Jul 6th, 2024 at 7:30pm
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bohemianway wrote on Jul 6th, 2024 at 6:58pm:
I believe this is about iron sights not scopes.


See above.
Quote:
This also holds for using a scope.
  

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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #5 - Jul 7th, 2024 at 12:11am
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Yes it applies for iron sights for both blade, post or aperture front sights and it also applies to scopes. 
Light reflection changes due to changes in light intensity affects all sight systems which change your point of aim.
  
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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #6 - Jul 7th, 2024 at 7:20am
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A.G. Banks did the test for aperture sights in difference light conditions.  Left, right, much, little.  His conclusion was that there is no difference with aperture front and rear.   Even put the different targets as proof.
« Last Edit: Jul 7th, 2024 at 7:29am by MartiniBelgian »  
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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #7 - Jul 7th, 2024 at 9:28am
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And he was never the International Schuetzen Benchrest Champion either.

Lones Wigger was the Champion in 1995 and 1999 and I was the Champion in 2008 and 2013.

Deviations are minor and the difference in his results may have been from the equipment he used or not having refined his shooting skills as much as Lones Wigger.

Need to ask a professionally acclaimed shooter like Lones Wigger who is the only shooter in the Olympic Hall of Fame, a major Olympic shooter, Olympic Coach and Coach of the Vietnam snipers who applied the principle using apertures.

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Adjusting for light transitions using apertures has worked repeadily for me in major competitions and claims it does not work with apertures is BS.

I got my training on adjusting for light changes from Lones Wigger in 1996 at Raton, NM.

You have to develop your equipment and skills with single shot cast bullet rifles to be at least 1/2 MOA accuracy before you can test 1/8 or 1/4 MOA deviations from light using apertures.

Failure to adjust for light changes will move you one ring on a ASSRA or ISSA target.
« Last Edit: Jul 7th, 2024 at 10:00am by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #8 - Jul 7th, 2024 at 12:30pm
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Why did this post go to the archives? which I recovered.
  
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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #9 - Jul 7th, 2024 at 5:05pm
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There was a famous British target shooter of the late 19th century who wrote a book on tips for target shooting from the time of iron sights and black powder (although I do think he lived long enough to shoot a match with a 303 and do well). I have the book but its whereabouts elude me at the moment as does his name. He was military and a sir. One of the well off dudes who had time and money enough to shoot, shoot, shoot. Anyway, one of his tips stuck with me and the rule was "lights down, sights down". This was in England where the clouds could pass over the range with great regularity during a match. In thinking about this all I could come up with is that without a good light to separate the front sight from the target you might tend to merge the front sight a bit into the target causing the shot to go high. Anyone recall his name or have a reprint of his book?
  
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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #10 - Jul 7th, 2024 at 8:53pm
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Don’t know his name but he’s absolutely correct changes in ambient light will affect elevation settings arpeture  rear post font. Have proven it to my self many times on Silhouette targets were I always use post and bead.

Arpeture - Arpeture when I shot Smallbore prone ambient light changes also affected point of impact, however to my eye lack of precision not a bias one way or the other.

Teaching my 16 year old grandson offhand,  arpeture rear post and bead front, iron sights 200 yard gongs now. Early lesson, every shot waiting for your turn open the rear up. Just before his turn close it until the front is in sharp focus. Then break the shot. His comment “wow that works” 

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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #11 - Jul 9th, 2024 at 1:48am
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Schuetzendave wrote on Jul 7th, 2024 at 9:28am:
And he was never the International Schuetzen Benchrest Champion either.

Lones Wigger was the Champion in 1995 and 1999 and I was the Champion in 2008 and 2013.

Deviations are minor and the difference in his results may have been from the equipment he used or not having refined his shooting skills as much as Lones Wigger.

Need to ask a professionally acclaimed shooter like Lones Wigger who is the only shooter in the Olympic Hall of Fame, a major Olympic shooter, Olympic Coach and Coach of the Vietnam snipers who applied the principle using apertures.

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Adjusting for light transitions using apertures has worked repeadily for me in major competitions and claims it does not work with apertures is BS.

I got my training on adjusting for light changes from Lones Wigger in 1996 at Raton, NM.

You have to develop your equipment and skills with single shot cast bullet rifles to be at least 1/2 MOA accuracy before you can test 1/8 or 1/4 MOA deviations from light using apertures.

Failure to adjust for light changes will move you one ring on a ASSRA or ISSA target.

Now, that's already à while different story.  So the deviations are 1/8 to 1/4 moa?  Which essentially means no change unless you're shooting benchest. 
Heck, bpcr sights are at best adjustable to 1/2 minute in practice.   
And of course  the correct use of aperture sights requires one to adjust front and rear optimally, not doing so will have its impact on accuracy   But saying that an increase in light will always require a sight elevation adjustment with aperture front and rear is simply not true.
  
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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #12 - Jul 9th, 2024 at 2:12am
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I learned most of what I stated from a highly qualified High Power shooter, in the '80's. High Power shooters, shoot 3 position, from 100 - 600 yards, regularly and use high end, iron aperture sights.

You'll have a hard time trying to re-educate them on light and how to adjust for it. They are a VERY competitive group of shooters.

  

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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #13 - Jul 9th, 2024 at 7:23am
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It makes a difference offhand. 

1 graduation on my tang sights is 1.2 MOA. you can split the difference and adjust by .6 moa my eyes it requires a pocket magnifying glass don’t do it. Bolt gun click sights it’s 1/4 moa but the graduations you can easily read and make in a timed relay are 1 MOA. 

Practical matter 1 or 2 MOA are the light adjustments most experienced shooters will make. Offhand you are centering a pattern not a pin point.  That pattern makes your score If it’s off center couple MOA as light changes it’s reflected on the score card. Difference in first place and also ran most  times a few points.

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Re: Tommy Mason on Sight Aperatures - a question
Reply #14 - Jul 9th, 2024 at 8:24am
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My Anschutz sights have the finer 1/10 MOA adjustments on my Schuetzen rifle and their precision adjustments for light with an adjustable rear iris has won me many benchrest competitions.
Lones Wigger also used the Anschutz front and rear sights when he won the 1995 and 1999 International Schuetzenfest Benchrest Championship and that is why I have used them ever since 1996 for my Schuetzen competitions.

Even my Burris scope had 1/8 MOA adjustments and also had an adjustable internal iris to balance light variations which even helped me win scope benchrest competitions as well at early dawn or late dusk light conditions.

It ussually requires at least two clicks of elevation adjustment for a light change to correct for the change in point of aim due to the changed light reflection from the change in light intensity.

The adjustable rear iris changes the balance of light and helps change the focus from the target to the front sight which affects your eye's ability to better concentrate on centering the target in the aperture.

Light changes during the competition are ussaully met with a sight adjustment to compensate for change in POA and do not require a rebalancing of the light coming through either the front or rear aperture.

You adjust the front aperture size at the start of the shoot and balance the light as well as focus your sights with the rear adjustable rear iris. 
You rarely adjust with changes to light conditions by adjusting your rear adjustable aperture to maintain the correct light balance unless you start getting glare or there is a major change in light intensity at dawn or dusk.

Unfortunately for some you can lead the horse to water but you cannot make him drink.
Best to listen to the advice of those who have won major shooting comptitions.

MartiniBelgian you are contradicting the advice of Lones Wigger the most recognized shooter and most acclaimed shooter in the World.

Lones Wigger in 2008, was inducted into the U.S. Olympic Hall of Fame as well as the U.S. International Shooting Hall of Fame. 
Wigger was selected by the United States Olympic Committee in 1996 as one of the 100 Golden American Olympians — an honor bestowed on the 100th year of the modern Olympics.

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« Last Edit: Jul 9th, 2024 at 10:39am by Schuetzendave »  
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