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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case (Read 2945 times)
John Taylor
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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #30 - Jun 30th, 2024 at 8:51am
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I have been installing liners for about 25 years and I don't care for the extractors on H&As. I have messed up a few over the years and had to figure out a way to fix chambers. For chamber repairs I usually use a short piece of modern barrel the right caliber. Bore the back of the barrel oversize and thread it. Thread the short barrel piece to fit and using a rod to insure it lines up with the bore it is installed with loctite. Then trimmed to length and chambered. All this is done in a lathe to insure the chamber reamer runs true. Liners are made from 4130 steel which does not alway cut smooth. Redman liners are button rifled and T.J.'s are hammer forged. Modern barrels are made from 4140 heat treated steel or 416 SS. Most of the time I use a Bentz reamer for 22LR but in some cases this will create to much pressure and the case can let go at the extractor cut. A Lilja chamber  will not work on most falling blocks and is usually for bolt guns. If you do it this way make sure you clean up an excess loctite out of the bore before it gets hard, It's not easy toe remove when it gets hard.
  

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Dellet
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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #31 - Jun 30th, 2024 at 10:32am
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For some reason I can’t see page 2 of responses, hope this wasn’t covered there.

It looks like a bad chamber, or larger than the original. The extractor look proud of the chamber.
If the extractor is holding the case up, easy enough to check, fire it without the extractor.

A chamber cast would not be a bad idea.

There is a significant (relative) pressure difference between the CCI Quiet and CB shorts, due to the 25% increase in bullet weight.

I would not be so sure that the crimp on the end of the case is due to low pressure not expanding the case. Since there is enough pressure to bulge the base where the brass is thicker, there should have been enough to blow the crimp out.

Below looks like a lip on the chamber end.
« Last Edit: Jun 30th, 2024 at 10:42am by Dellet »  
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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #32 - Jun 30th, 2024 at 11:12am
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John T,
I don't understand your fix for a bad chamber.  Are you adding 1 or 2 inches of new barrel to the chamber end?  I.e. adding a new barrel stub?

Dellet,
I think the extractor is proud of the chamber.  I don't think there's a lip at the chamber end, but when I get home tonight I'll check.

Yes, page 2 appears to be some glitch in the web server.  I don't think there's any content there.  It wouldn't let me post last night either.

Joe
  

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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #33 - Jun 30th, 2024 at 3:18pm
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Dellet,
You have a sharp eye.  With a magnifier and a metal pick, I saw the small lip you pointed out.  A thin round stone was able to remove that.  Thank you.

In addition to being slightly high, the extractor is not well cut to accommodate the cartridge rim.  When I get a spot of time, I'll take it out to shape it and give it a test fire.

I'll report back. 
Joe
  

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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #34 - Jun 30th, 2024 at 5:21pm
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As stated by someone earlier (not me)…. A fast test of extractor problems is to shoot it without the extractor in place.  Take a cleaning rod to pop out the fired brass.  It shouldn’t take much pressure to push them out.  That will tell you the difference between the brass sticking in the chamber and the brass hanging up on the extractor.
  
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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #35 - Jun 30th, 2024 at 5:21pm
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Did you cut/fit the extractor after chamber reaming? That would create a problem, forcing the reamer to cut into the previously cut chamber as well as the extractor.
  
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John Taylor
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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #36 - Jul 1st, 2024 at 8:06am
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[quote author=4C4D4C475157414A220 link=1719609655/32#32 date=1719760366]John T,
I don't understand your fix for a bad chamber.  Are you adding 1 or 2 inches of new barrel to the chamber end?  I.e. adding a new barrel stub?

The new piece of barrel is installed inside the old barrel and is only the length of the brass. The throat is not touched. This way you end up with a new chamber without altering anything ells. In the picture it does look like the extractor is a bit high which will cause problems. Looks like the chamber is a bit oversize which would make the extractor look a bit high. On H&As it looks like the extractor was an after thought, it hits on to may thing internal to have much travel.
  

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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #37 - Jul 1st, 2024 at 8:11am
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Do not try to cut the extractor with a chamber reamer while it is the action. This will force the chamber reamer to cut an oversize chamber.
  

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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #38 - Jul 1st, 2024 at 3:43pm
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My Taylor,

Have I been playing with fire? The last few center fire rifles I built I cut the extractors in using the reamer. Mind you only by a few thousandths but I thought it was an acceptable way to do it.



JMH
  
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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #39 - Jul 1st, 2024 at 4:03pm
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I cut extractors on the milling machine with the extractor in the vice and the chamber reamer in the quill. Carefully.
  
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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #40 - Jul 1st, 2024 at 4:58pm
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The prize goes to Dellet.  Using the scientific principle of changing only one variable at a time, after quickly stoning off the chamber ridge Dellet observed, I re-assembled the H&A rifle (no easy task) and test fired it with CCI 710 fps 40 gr ammo.  Damn, no extraction issues now.  Just a finger flick and the old case is gone.   

I admit that the extractor is a mess.  It goes up/down, back/forth, but for me, right now, it's working well. 

I hope to use this rifle with 900fps 40 gr hollow point subsonic ammo against a groundhog that's burrowing under my shed and eating one neighbors garden.  But the other neighbor is unknown, so I want to keep this covert.  With this ammo, or standard velocity ammo, I'm happy to hunt anything.  

Am I taking a crazy risk?
  

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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #41 - Jul 1st, 2024 at 5:41pm
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No real risk using higher velocity .22’s in an H&A 922.  It’s a quite robust action since it is a true falling block.  The same size frame was used for .32rf and .38rf in factory H&A 932’s and 938’s.  I have one that is converted from .32rf to .32 S&W Long (different barrel to get true .312 diameter and different link between the lever and block to get the firing pin to the center of the chamber).  It shoots .32 S&W Long with no signs of pressure.  .32 S&W Long is lower pressure than .22 LR (15,000 psi versus 24,000 psi) but has much higher breach thrust.

I won’t comment on shooting critters in the yard since I’m guilty too.
  
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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #42 - Jul 1st, 2024 at 8:01pm
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I'm sure the true falling block action of the H+A is strong enough.  I'm worried about the circumstances around the brass, the thin unsupported portions of the cartridge which normally is nothing, but in something this old, might be a problem.  What is safe in 1890 might be different in 1990.
  

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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #43 - Jul 2nd, 2024 at 12:12am
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Since you are new at this.
Here’s my thoughts on this gun.  You’re going to probably get away with what you have as long as you are shooting the low pressure stuff.  But, if you ever shoot high velocity shells you are probably going to see some issues crop up quickly.  I’ve seen high velocity shells “pop” the rim because there was to much of an unsupported area around the rim, something like you have.  Like someone else said, a high velocity 22LR can be up in the 25000 psi range.

The other issue I see, (and maybe this is an illusion because of the photography) the head space is messed up.  It appears the liner is hanging out behind the original barrel breech face.  If this is the case, and the original head space was correct, then you are crushing the breech block against the thin edge of the liner shell head clearance cut.

I’m guessing you don’t have a lathe?  But, in my opinion, in order to make this “right” and “safe”, you need to do one of two things.  
One, do like John Taylor said and install a new chamber liner.  Leaving slightly long so the proper head space can be obtained.
Or, set the barrel back, adjusting for the proper head space, recut the extractor and rechamber.  This solution will create other required fixes, like the take down screw and forearm retaining screw.
Either of these will require a lathe.

With a 22LR, as long is the chamber, barrel breech face, extractor, breech block face and head space are all correct, the age of the gun will make no difference and I would not be afraid to shoot the gun.
Bob
« Last Edit: Jul 2nd, 2024 at 12:25am by bobw »  

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John Taylor
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Re: .22 Hard Extraction - Bulged Case
Reply #44 - Jul 2nd, 2024 at 6:57am
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gwahir wrote on Jul 1st, 2024 at 4:03pm:
I cut extractors on the milling machine with the extractor in the vice and the chamber reamer in the quill. Carefully.

That's the way I do it. Found out the hard way that doing it in the action made the chamber oversize.
  

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