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jhm
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twist rate
Jun 27th, 2024 at 8:44pm
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I have a friend who has a Hi Wall with a Badger 45 cal tapered round barrel and he ask me what would be the best bullet weight to try. We checked it and it has a 1 in 22 twist. Think he is shooting a RCBS 405 gr now.



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frnkeore
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Re: twist rate
Reply #1 - Jun 27th, 2024 at 8:56pm
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They shoot a 500 gr bullet, in the original trap door
  

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Schuetzendave
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Re: twist rate
Reply #2 - Jun 27th, 2024 at 11:06pm
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Caliber      0.459      Inches            
Bullet Weight      405      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.02      Inches            
Barrel Twist      22      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1200      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      3.07            

Caliber      0.459      Inches            
Bullet Weight      535      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.455      Inches            
Barrel Twist      22      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1200      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.53                  
                       
Sg (gyroscopic stability factor) shouldn't be less than 1.4 (not enough spin - bullet will tumble).  If Sg is greater than about 2.0 (excess spin), you may gain some accuracy by going to a slower twist barrel or using a longer bullet. Also a heavier bullet (has greater kinetic energy) is less prone to wind drift and is capable of shooting longer distances. I would suggest going to a 500 to 535 grain bullet.                        
     
« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2024 at 11:13pm by Schuetzendave »  
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LRF
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Re: twist rate
Reply #3 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 6:36am
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There are numerous factors that actual effect the answer you are looking for. However many have minimal affect and the influence itself changes with conditions (air pressure, humidity, etc). Luckily the major influencers can be plugged into readily available online calculators and the quick answer can be obtained. Most are a variation of the Greenhill formula.
22" is a slow twist so that puts constraint's on going to a real heavy long range bullet. My suggestion is keep the muzzle velocity over 1300 fps, a max bullet length at or under 1.25" and a max weight 480 grains. Play with the bullet shape within these parameters and he should be okay.
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: twist rate
Reply #4 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 7:35am
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I used the more advanced Don Miller gyroscopic stability factor formula in my calculation above.
His more precise calculation expands the Greenhill prediction by including the environmental factors into the calculation.
Miller twist rule is a mathematical formula derived by Don Miller to determine the rate of twist to apply to a given bullet to provide optimum stability using a rifled barrel. 
Miller suggests that, while Greenhill's formula works well, there are better and more precise methods for determining the proper twist rate that are no more difficult to compute.

With the minimum bullet length you recommend and increasing velocity:

Caliber      0.459      Inches            
Bullet Weight      450      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.265      Inches            
Barrel Twist      22      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1300      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.95                  
« Last Edit: Jun 28th, 2024 at 11:56am by Schuetzendave »  
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JKR
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Re: twist rate
Reply #5 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 7:45am
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Are you sure about that rate of twist? If you’re correct, it’s the first Badger I’ve heard of with that slow of twist. 
What was the twist on the trapdoor? They shot well with the 500 grain government bullet which is less than 1.4” I think. 

  
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jhm
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Re: twist rate
Reply #6 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 8:10am
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Twist is 22. We checked it three times with a tight fitting patch. I have a RCBS
500 gr round nose we are going to try. Think it is 457125? I would have to go look. Thanks guys...



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Schuetzendave
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Re: twist rate
Reply #7 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 12:06pm
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The Trapdoors were 22:1 twist from information on the internet.
However some modern .45-70 barrels are being made with 20:1 or 18:1 twist to shoot 580 grain bullets.
  
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GT
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Re: twist rate
Reply #8 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 12:21pm
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In a conversation I once had with Ernie, I'd inquired about a different twist on a barrel blank.  If I remember things correctly, he told me I could have any twist rate I wanted in his 45 cal barrels, as long as it was a 1:18.  Wink  I think I purchased a half dozen of them with various twist requests and they all are 1:18.
So I'm inclined to agree with JKR's comment, yours is news to me.
JMH,
I do have a few others on rifles with a 1:20 and slightly less that shoot a 500g pill very well.  A Lott caliber comes to mind, in a big boomer, very accurate in cast, jacketed and monolithics.  Used in very hot and very cold extremes.   
I'd start with the 405g but I tend to lean towards slightly heavier as the distance grows.
GT
  

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Re: twist rate
Reply #9 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 2:32pm
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Perhaps the subject's barrel is not a Badger.....???
I agree with others who stated Ernie's comment about lack of choice other than 1:18 for 45s,  or 1-16 for 40s etc.
"Broaches are very expensive " 

beltfed/arnie
  
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jhm
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Re: twist rate
Reply #10 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 3:55pm
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If I remember correctly the barrel on his gun was one of an order the now defunct Shawnee Rifle Co. of Warner Robins Ga made in the early nineties. They were to be used on 1877 Sharps rifles these guys were going to build. I just checked it again and it is indeed 1 in 22 twist. Don't know what else to say. Going to try a 500 grain and see if it improves.



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jhm
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Re: twist rate
Reply #11 - Jul 7th, 2024 at 11:29am
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Well folks it is hard to type this with all this egg on my face but you folks were right about the 1 in 18 twist being the only twist offered for Badger's 45 cal barrels. Was over at my friends house yesterday and we checked that barrel again using a different cleaning rod. Lo and behold it is indeed 1 in 18 twist. My apologies to everyone who were adamant about it being 1 in 18. My cleaning rod evidently was a bit sticky and was not rotating freely. Guess I was pushing too hard on it due to the heavy patch I was using. When you're wrong you're wrong...




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Schuetzendave
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Re: twist rate
Reply #12 - Jul 7th, 2024 at 12:15pm
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Caliber      0.459      Inches            
Bullet Weight      405      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.02      Inches            
Barrel Twist      18      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1200      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      4.59                  

Caliber      0.459      Inches            
Bullet Weight      450      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.265      Inches            
Barrel Twist      18      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1300      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      2.92      

Caliber      0.459      Inches            
Bullet Weight      535      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.455      Inches            
Barrel Twist      18      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1200      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      2.28                  
     
Caliber      0.459      Inches            
Bullet Weight      560      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.52      Inches            
Barrel Twist      18      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1200      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      2.11                  
                       
Sg shouldn't be less than 1.4 (not enough spin).  If Sg is greater than about 2.0 (overspinning), you may gain some accuracy by going to a slower twist barrel or using a longer bullet                        
  
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