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ssdave
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Weight sorting cast bullets
Jun 3rd, 2024 at 9:18pm
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I'm a weight sorter.  I confess.  I know many feel like it's a waste of time, but to me it's part of the quality control of cast bullet production.

I cast 3 lots of about 100 to 125 bullets.  The first lot was with lead that had been in my lead pot for some time, and the other two were with a fresh lot of metal.   


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I weight sorted the second two lots, and got this nice bell shaped distribution, with a few light and a few heavy thrown out to the back of the sort.  I sorted out 100 match bullets, varying + - .2 grains from the mean of 358.2 grains.  In the weighing process, I discarded two visually defective bullets, one had a fin, and one had a rounded base from not quite a full fill out.


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I then set out sighters, from those that varied by .2 grains outside that range.

The remainder are set aside for practice or "desperation" ammo.

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The first lot of bullets were heavier because of different alloy.  I sorted them, again into a nice bell curve, and set aside the middle of the curve for match bulelts.   
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all the remaining bullets without visible defects get lumped together to shoot as practice ammo, or if I get desperate for bullets and don't have time to cast.

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I like the weighting process, I weigh in order cast and I can see how the weight changes from start to finish, and where I set the mold down and skim.  I preheat my mold on a hotplate to about 400 to 450 degrees, so the first bullet comes out good, no mold startup.  But, the weight bounces a few grains at first, until I get  good rhythm going.
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #1 - Jun 3rd, 2024 at 10:17pm
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DAVE:
I used to be a dedicated bullet weigher.    If you think about what causes the variation in weights, you will realize that the bullets that are "lighter" are missing some metal somewhere.   This turns out to be voids near the center-line of the bullet.

To see what the effect this would have on the accuracy, I collected a batch (~ 50) of the "light" bullets, and together with some "full weight" bullets, and fired them (scope/bench) at a target with a grid of lines.   Each bullet was fired essentially at its "own" target, each bullet having its weight deficiency known.    The distance the bullet struck from its own "X" on the target was plotted on a graph,  weight deficiency VS distance from X.   

The result was not the expected "error" increasing with decreasing weight, as most bullets, even the defective "light" ones, struck at the aiming point, but there were a few slight fliers, in increasing numbers as the weight deficiency increased.  Note that "most" of the "light" bullets struck accurately.   And most of the bullets in this test were ones that would have been discarded as being "light".

Thorough statistical analysis showed that weighing ALL the bullets and discarding the ones that were "light" by a certain amount, would POSSIBLY eliminate as many as  1% of bullets that MIGHT be measurable  fliers.   This was an arduous experiment to do, obviously, but convinced me that weighing bullets is really a waste of time.

If it makes you feel good, go ahead and do it, but don't fool yourself that you are improving your results by a measurable amount.

CHRIS

  
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WVsmoke
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #2 - Jun 3rd, 2024 at 10:40pm
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Chris,
     Thanks for doing the work to test the hypothesis.  I have weighed bullets over the years and it has increased “confidence”, but being a scientist, the error introduced by such a small percentage difference between individual bullets and expecting that error to be great enough to be able to measure the error when so many other factors have much more influence is crazy.  So I still weigh, but only to eliminate those bullets that vary dramatically.   Allan
  
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bpjack
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #3 - Jun 3rd, 2024 at 10:42pm
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I am not only a bullet weigher, but I am a dipper banger and a bag squeezer.  For each years matches, I cast somewhere around 800-1000 bullets from my ~209 gr (20-1) 3 groove spitzer. I sort them into .1 gr lots.  Assuming I have large quantities of bullets in the 209.0 to 209.5 range sorted, I will have enough 208.8-9 for serious practice and some less than 208.8 that I will shoot 3 or 4 to get the barrel up to accuracy condition.  I only lube them when matches start after casting from late fall to March or so.
  

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SBoomer
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #4 - Jun 4th, 2024 at 7:14am
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Dave,
I have done the same exercise several times. After casting at 800+ degress and poring/filling slower my mean error went WAY down. I now cast up 20-30 bullets at startup that go back straight into the pot. The last batch of 200 bullets that I weighed were 98% +/- .2gr. I ladle cast out of a 40# pot and don’t add or replace lead/tin until I’m done casting. I cast up a half a dozen 50gr maxi-balls(big metplat) when I am finished to monitor lead hardness prior to the next casting session with the Cabine hardness tester. 

Like Chris, I too have shot some of my best groups with “barrel warmup culls”. 
Like Jack, I too, squeeze the bag and will admit to several lead free shots on target while breechseating…. Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #5 - Jun 4th, 2024 at 8:17am
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the farther the shooting distance the more important weight becomes  at 100 or 200 yards not to important  at 600 quite important  art
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #6 - Jun 4th, 2024 at 9:34am
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Casting technique can be a big factor.   If you read Charlie Dell's books, you will see his account of my teaching HIM how to cast bullets.  !!

CHRIS
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #7 - Jun 4th, 2024 at 11:05am
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I used to weigh bullets, but I don't anymore. I do still inspect all my bullets and toss any questionable bullets back in the pot. I also tested known bullets that were one half to one full grain light on heavier 410 gr. .40 caliber bullets and didn't see any measurable differences in accuracy from 100 yds. to 1000 yds. I do believe if there were dramatic differences it can affect accuracy, but those large differences will usually show on inspection as wrinkles, or rounded edges on lube grooves or bases.
I know shooters who always shoot in the top 5 or 10 guys at matches and tell me they also quit weighing bullets. So if they don't find it worthwhile a duffer like me surely wont.
  

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bpjack
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #8 - Jun 4th, 2024 at 11:35am
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I do weigh the bullets in as cast order. By preheating the mould on an electric cook top and usually end up with bullets in my desired range after less than 10 lighter ones. Any other bullet that has a significant deviation from the previous ones (rare occurrence) ends up back in the pot or joins the culls. Usually there is some visible base fill issue with those.   

Jack
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #9 - Jun 4th, 2024 at 12:32pm
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My process has always been to leave my molds on top of my furnace while heating the pot up. Then once up to temperature I cast a bullet and set the mold aside for a few minutes to further heat the mold. I then cast 5 bullets and inspect each visually, and often drop some back into the pot if they look less than perfect. 
by the 5th bullet they almost always look perfect and then it's full speed ahead casting bullets. I do one more inspection of all the bullets once I'm done, and toss culls back in the pot if I find anything suspicious.
  

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RSW
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #10 - Jun 4th, 2024 at 1:09pm
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ssdave's shooting methods overall are well thought out and his results show that his thoroughness pays off. Ya gotta admire his dedication to perfection. 
The method that has always worked well for me is to make casting runs (.32 cal) of 100 to about 120, depending on circumstances and I keep the bullets in the order cast. When I inspect and weigh them (for BR only) I reject any that are plus-minus .3gr or more from the mainstream. Over the course of a casting run there can be a mainstream variation of a half grain or more but any group of about 10 bullets rarely has a variation of more than plus-minus .1gr. My rejection rate is generally about 3-4% but then I do have my good casting days and them some that aren't so good  Undecided
By the way, I ladle cast and I shoot my bullets in the order cast. Some BR matches I do well and sometimes not so much but that's me not bullets.
  

Randy W
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GunBum
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #11 - Jun 4th, 2024 at 3:28pm
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What’s the statistical significance of picking 0.3 grain, or 0.2 grains, or any other number?  I’ll tell you.  There is none if you randomly picked a number that makes you feel good. 

The correct way to determine outliers is to weigh all of the bullets, then calculate the mean and standard deviation, then throw out any that are more than 3 standard deviations from the mean.  Anything else you throw out is part of the normal population and you’ll be chasing your tail to get any accuracy gains.  Using proper 6 sigma limits to your data, you should throw out less than 1% of the bullets cast.  If the weight range seems too large, work on your casting technique rather than your use of the scale.   

Weighing the bullets in the order you cast them should give some insight into where your casting cadence and technique went south.

The bottom line is that with good casting technique the outliers usually have visible defects and are faster to cull with your eyes than your scale.   

Just my opinion on the misuse of statistical process control in bullet casting. Smiley
  
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #12 - Jun 4th, 2024 at 3:35pm
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The one place where weighing bullets has paid off for me is to weigh them as I am casting.  Any variation shows me that there is a variation in my techniques.  That enabled me to cast bullets with much less variation from bullet to bullet.
  

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bpjack
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #13 - Jun 4th, 2024 at 3:57pm
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Since I keep track of the cast order, I will note ant time there is a forced break in my cadence and note the following bullet weights.  There is usually at least one lighter bullet following the break.  I also find that the sprue plate tension is important.  I prefer the plate to be a loose as possible without swinging freely.  Spring washers help achieve this desired tension.  I have a couple of moulds that tend to have to plate seize up as the mould gets hotter.  My solution is to touch a  slightly used birthday candle to the plate screw WITH a bullet still in the cavity. If I do it right I get back to my rhythm in a bullet or 2. 

Jack
  

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RSW
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Re: Weight sorting cast bullets
Reply #14 - Jun 4th, 2024 at 5:13pm
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GunBum
My .3gr and .2gr standards are not based on statistical validity. They are simple quality prameters that I can maintain while hand-casting bullets. My method produces bullets that will all go into the 25 ring at 200 yds. Now me being able to shoot well enough to do that very often is a whole 'nuther story. IMO it's shooting practice that produces consistently good scores as long as your bullets are accurate enough to stay in the 25 ring.
How do I know my bullets will stay in the 25 ring? I've shot a few 250s in competition plus lots of 248 & 249s. I've also shot groups as small as .5" at 100 yds and lots of .75 groups. Bottom line - my bullet casting method works for me  Wink
« Last Edit: Jun 4th, 2024 at 6:04pm by RSW »  

Randy W
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