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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) High Wall Extractor - diagnosis? (Read 1457 times)
ssdave
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High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Jun 1st, 2024 at 9:59pm
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Extremely hard to long distance diagnose this, but thought I'd throw it out for discussion.   

My wife's 38-55 high wall has to have the lever hit hard to extract the cartridge.  I determined to fix it today.  Luckily, I have a lot of spare parts to compare to.   

The extractor works by having a short "step" on the back of it, that the breech block hits near bottom, and rotates the extractor around a pin.  The extractor is maybe 3/8 inch off the pivot point, so pretty short lever. 

When I compare this extractor to several others, I see no dimensional differences, except maybe a tiny bit of wear at the back corner of the extractor "shelf" where the block hits the extractor.

The chamber is tight on fired cartridges; that is part of the problem.  Sized, unfired cases eject easily.   

I used prussian blue to see where things rubbed and hit, etc and determined the rim cut in the extractor isn't jamming the extractor.  The back side of the extractor opposite the rim was dragging the wall, so I stoned it and relived the corners till it wasn't.  The bottom corner of the rim extension on the extractor was dragging on the bottom of the barrel extractor cut, so I relieved it slightly, and radiused both extractor and barrel edges.  At this time, I'm sure the extractor itself isn't jamming.

I'm going to pull the barrel, and polish the back of the chamber slightly, so it's not so tight.  I've done that a bit before, but the hard extraction has gotten worse over time.  Not sure if that's the gun, or the brass being used more times.  I prefer not to resize, but will if I have to.  However, even resized brass sticks after firing; I've determined that already. 

I'm considering TIG welding a tiny bit on the extractor shelf corner where it hits the breech block, to see if that would fix it.

Any thoughts or similar experience?

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bobw
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #1 - Jun 1st, 2024 at 11:29pm
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Dave, that extractor shelf looks suspicious to me.  The angle looks like it will make the leverage even worse.  When assembled and the breech block open, does the extractor extend to back against the Breech block, with pressure applied forward to it?  If it doesn’t, I would for-certain agree with the welding.  With too much weld….or too high of a corner, it will probably lock up the breech block and not let it open or at least get tight.  Then it would be just removing metal until everything works.  Of course, I would bet you already know all this.
Bob
« Last Edit: Jun 1st, 2024 at 11:38pm by bobw »  

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bpjack
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #2 - Jun 1st, 2024 at 11:52pm
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I have a similar issue with my 25 Hornet, although while it is hard to extract, I haven't had to resort to anything but a firm sharp push on the lever.  You got me to thinking (WARNING, DANGER).  I wonder if coating a case with magic marker which should not add any thickness to speak of compared to Prussian Blue and see where it is grabbing.  My other thought which you seem to have covered is to remove the extractor and see if it feels as sticky while pushing it out with a cleaning rod.  It will be interesting to see what you find out.
  

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frnkeore
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #3 - Jun 2nd, 2024 at 2:43am
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Quote:
Sized, unfired cases eject easily.


If this is the case, mark the case like jack suggests, before firing. After firing look for any shiny areas on the case, fire it several more times and keep looking.

If a shiny area appears you either have a slight bulge or a bad chamber. If that's the case, you can open the chamber, behind that area, until it extracts freely.
  

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MartiniBelgian
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #4 - Jun 2nd, 2024 at 3:44am
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Make a chamber cast, to see if you don't have a ringed chamber.  Hope for you this isn't the case, but it is a possible cause...
  
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gnoahhh
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #5 - Jun 2nd, 2024 at 8:34am
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My gut reaction, as alluded to above, is that the fault doesn't entirely lie with the extractor, rather with the chamber or soft brass or, heaven forfend, load hotness. Just a thought.
  
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #6 - Jun 2nd, 2024 at 12:44pm
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Reads like the barrel’s chamber is being rung as the problem get’s worse after several firings. Look/measure at the neck area of a fired case for dimensional irregularities. What is the load, wad usage and barrel make?
  
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ssdave
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #7 - Jun 2nd, 2024 at 1:31pm
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I'm diagnosing this real time, posting as I try things.  Hopefully this will be somewhat interesting and show how a person can go about sequentially eliminating variables as they trouble shoot.

What I've really come to realize is that memory and what we perceive are very influential on how we go about diagnosis, and perception and memory aren't entirely accurate.

I pulled the barrel.  The grease and crud in the extractor cut shows that the extractor isn't hitting and binding there.  The grease is from me greasing the barrel with bullet lube after cleaning.   

I tried fired cases in the barrel.   They chamber and extract readily, no sticking.  I tapped them in to refusal with a small hammer.  Tighter, but don't stick.  These same lot of fired cases jams nearly every time when loaded into the assembled rifle, and have to be pounded out with a cleaning rod, or by hitting the lever hard to get the extractor to work.

I then used pin gauges to check the chamber.  It is .001" over brass size at the back, and tapers evenly as evidenced by sequentially further penetration as I go down .001" between pin gauge diameters.  The brass also shows no evidence of bulging, and tapers uniformly when measured with a caliper, and isn't out of round.  So, pretty much have ruled out a bulged chamber.      

What that now says to me is that the extractor is the component causing the case to bind.  Looking at it and comparing to the chamber, the inside edge is slightly out of round.  I now hypothesize that it is binding the case.  I previously had determined that the extractor was binding slightly on the receiver wall, and relieved the back top of it.  When I check the back of it with a straight edge, it is now bowed slightly, so the extractor could still be binding based on hitting the receiver wall below.   

I'm now going to re-assemble the rifle, and check for sticking cases WITHOUT the extractor in place.  I should have done that before I disassembled it.  If they don't stick, I'll trouble shoot extractor more.

Now a note about perception and memory, as mentioned above.  This rifle was unused for 6 years.  Last year, we used it again, and cases stuck.  Seemed to be worse than before.  Maybe, maybe not.  I also am relying on memory about new cases vs sized, and fired.  And, I had previously polished the chamber out slightly to make it fit the cases better, as it was .001" tight at the back.  All those things, and time, confuse memory and affect how I perceive the problem.

  
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ssdave
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #8 - Jun 2nd, 2024 at 1:33pm
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Here's the pictures of the extractor and the barrel cut.

Also, a couple more things I checked, trying to eliminate variables.  A case inserted into the barrel backwards, the rim clears perfectly and has adequate clearance.  Also, checked the case length to make sure it wasn't excessive and the mouth of the case jamming in the chamber leade.  No evidence of that problem, and cases are about .003" above nominal 2.125" length.  And, the longer ones don't fit tighter than the shorter ones when tapped in to refusal with a hammer.

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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #9 - Jun 2nd, 2024 at 2:10pm
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Could be no more than the chamber needs a good cleaning/polishing.
  
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John Taylor
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #10 - Jun 2nd, 2024 at 2:49pm
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I have had several that will not extract easy, usually polishing the chamber will help. On a few occasions I have had to line the chamber because of a ring. A chamber cast will show if this is the problem, the cast will be hard to get out or not come out at all. Had a problem with a Stevens a while back and the cast came out with  the neck of a cartridge which had been stuck in the chamber.
  

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ssdave
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #11 - Jun 2nd, 2024 at 4:23pm
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Going to do something else for awhile, will take this back up tonight or tomorrow.  I put the barrel back in, and the breech block will press in the brass till it gets tight and needs knocked out with a rod.  Couldn't find any new brass, but sized a case and it doesn't stick.  I'm going to try one more thing, trim a fired case to make sure it's not the mouth.

Thanks, John, appreciate your insight.  I'll pull the barrel again, and will chamber cast it.  Really don't think it's a ring; it's pressing the brass in the last few thousandths in the chamber that sticks it.  It finger seats probably within .005" of final.  The breech block will cam it in to stick, tapping it in with a hammer won't.  Anything up to that last few thousandths doesn't stick.  Cerrosafe will give me assurance that what I'm observing is right.

Then, I'll polish the chamber again, and particularly the back of the chamber.  I'll pay particular attention to not bulging or egg shaping the chamber in the process.   

This chamber has always been tight and has had clearance problems since the beginning.  I pulled the barrel and polished out the chamber slightly when we first used it, and it made it better with new brass, but the problem remained with fired brass after it was reloaded and not sized.   The pin gauges show it's adequate for the brass, but a bit more taper would probably improve things.
  
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #12 - Jun 2nd, 2024 at 4:45pm
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It looks like my issue is simple.  A tight chamber.  Of the 12 cases that I had in my breech seating kit, 4 of them measure .292 or .293 just ahead of the rim Two of them are the ones I have been using and both stick.  The other 8, some of which haven't been fired recently all measure .291 and do not stick.  I checked the 95 other pieces of Hornady brass that came with the rifle from Schuetzenmeister's estate all measure .291 and may be unfired.  I have a few others in a separate container that I believe I expanded from sized 22 Hornet.  They ll measure .292 and stick.  I ran one back through the 22 Hornet sizing die and it came out at .292.  I took the 4 oversized ones and turned them down to .291.  The next step is to fire them and see if they expand back to over .291 and stick.   

Jack
  

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HarrisHighwall
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #13 - Jun 2nd, 2024 at 5:29pm
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lots of good long distance trouble shooting thoughts

here's my $.02 worth

1) resolve chamber question
   pick your favorite ...  for a tight chamber mine would be 
   dyekem blue or magic maker and see if a "perfect" chamber 
   reamer cleans up with a very light hand touch
2) build up extractor leg contact point after chamber / ammo 
    issue is resolved  ... see attached pic ... they look almost 
    straight yours looks like the point is very rounded

good luck
  
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bpjack
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Re: High Wall Extractor - diagnosis?
Reply #14 - Jun 2nd, 2024 at 7:01pm
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I wish Dave good luck in fixing the issue.  In my case it is easier to just modify the brass as I primarily breech seat and can shoot a match with only a few pieces of brass.  Who am I to mess with a Ron Smith cut chamber Smiley  I hope he can make it to the Spokane match at the end of the month.  I will ask him about this rifle then.

Jack
« Last Edit: Jun 2nd, 2024 at 10:28pm by bpjack »  

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