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Grand slam
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Sifting BP
Mar 22nd, 2024 at 5:14pm
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I’m planning on building a .32-40 200 yard match rifles. I’m limited by rules to using Black Powder (BP) only and I have no problem with that. It seems that the most accurate shooting is with smokeless powder though. And I’ve wondered why that is and I have thought it may be the fact that grain structure is much more uniform in smokeless powder. Burning rate, all other things being equal (which is usually not the case) is determined by the surface area of the individual grains of powder. Because the grain structure of BP varies from case to case and batch to batch, the pressure curve would be different shot to shot and indicated by reduced accuracy. If this is true would sifting powder to produce more uniform grain size per load lead to greater accuracy. What are your thoughts as to why smokeless powder loads are more accurate.
Cheers Richard
  
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RSW
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #1 - Mar 23rd, 2024 at 2:28pm
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If you read Dr Franklin Mann's book "The Bullets Flight from Powder to Target" (1909), he goes into excruciating detail to explain it all. The book can be found online in PDF format if you care to read it. 

It's all quite  involved, having to do with his X, Y, Z, T errors but (IMO) the bottom line boils down to a couple of things:
-The main reason for bullets not all going into the same hole in a target is that cast bullets have the center of mass not (always, ever?) congruent with center of form. Thereby inducing some or a lot, of bullet wobble during flight.
-Another contributing factor is bullet base distortion from the effect of black powder charge ignition. Smokeless powder ignition does not distort a bullet's base to the degree that black powder does.

This is all MY take on what Dr Mann presented, your interpretation may vary.
  

Randy W
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oneatatime
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #2 - Mar 23rd, 2024 at 5:26pm
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So, Randy, what would a bullet look like whose center of mass is congruent with center of form?
  
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RSW
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #3 - Mar 24th, 2024 at 12:43am
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. . . "what would a bullet look like whose center of mass is congruent with center of form?" There-in lies the rub. Visually there is no way to determine if your cast bullet(s) have the center of mass concentric with the center of form. I suppose if there were an instrument that would spin a bullet, you might be able to determine if it was balanced or not  Huh
Even though Dr Mann's shooting experiments were conducted over 100 years ago, much of his data is valid for cast bullet shooting today.
  

Randy W
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gnoahhh
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #4 - Mar 24th, 2024 at 10:10am
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Technology may exist for doing that, Randy. I've read of a device called the Juenke Internal Concentricity Comparator which does what you're referencing to with jacketed bullets. Descriptions of how it works and how it's used baffled me a bit (ok, a lot), but the seriously scientific experimenters seemingly worship its attributes.

I know not if it's applicable to cast bullets, but suspect it may. They're rather expensive so I guess I'll never find out for myself.
  
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SchwartzStock
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #5 - Mar 24th, 2024 at 11:34am
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A friend of mine used to "index" his bullets as he loaded them into the cases and when loading the rifle. Indexing was based one of the mould lines of the cast bullets. As I recall indexing to the case was done in reference to the headstamp. Although he swore it made a difference I was never convinced...
  

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waterman
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #6 - Mar 24th, 2024 at 10:31pm
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SchwartzStock wrote on Mar 24th, 2024 at 11:34am:
A friend of mine used to "index" his bullets as he loaded them into the cases and when loading the rifle. Indexing was based one of the mould lines of the cast bullets. As I recall indexing to the case was done in reference to the headstamp. Although he swore it made a difference I was never convinced...


Indexing is certainly a step in the right direction, but which of the mould lines do you use? How do you tell them apart?  If you mark the line in any manner, even with an ink marker, you will make the mass even less concentric.
  
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SchwartzStock
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #7 - Mar 25th, 2024 at 5:52am
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There was enough of a difference between the two lines where the mould separated to tell one side from the other. Of course he was shooting unsized bullets.

Probably 10 or more years back there was a discussion on this in BPCN (Black Powder Cartridge News) but unfortunately I gave my collection away so I can't go back and look...
  

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gunlaker
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #8 - Mar 25th, 2024 at 9:31am
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An important thing to realize about F.W. Mann's findings is that even when the bullet is perfect going into the chamber, by the time it comes out of the muzzle it is often buggered up. Indexing bullets does nothing to solve this problem.

Chris.
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #9 - Mar 25th, 2024 at 9:59am
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My experience has been that it is easier to get uniform velocities with BP than with smokeless.   
If your BP has grains of widely varying size (which WOULD be helped by sifting) it is crappy powder.

CHRIS
  
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #10 - Mar 25th, 2024 at 12:31pm
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I can only speak for GOEX BP, I've never used anything else.

I tried sifting and used a fan, at a distance that I thought would be very gentle but, it made a mess, doing just one can. I scared myself when I seen the mess!!!

That was done to remove the "fines" in the #2 powder so, I went to #1 and found much better accuracy in my slug gun and cartridge rifles and near sieved again.
  

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SchwartzStock
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #11 - Mar 25th, 2024 at 3:34pm
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Talked to my friend tonight, said he was using the sprue cut-off as his reference for indexing the bullets into the casings and that he had filed a notch in the case rims as a reference for the cases.

He has now given up on this procedure as not providing much of an improvement in group sizes.
  

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gunlaker
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #12 - Mar 25th, 2024 at 4:44pm
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frnkeore wrote on Mar 25th, 2024 at 12:31pm:
I can only speak for GOEX BP, I've never used anything else.

I tried sifting and used a fan, at a distance that I thought would be very gentle but, it made a mess, doing just one can. I scared myself when I seen the mess!!!

That was done to remove the "fines" in the #2 powder so, I went to #1 and found much better accuracy in my slug gun and cartridge rifles and near sieved again.


Goex powders generally have a much larger variation in granule size than Swiss.   The only exception might be Goex Fg  which is very coarse.

I know a few people that "sift" Goex powders by going outside on a breezy day and pouring the cans into a large bowl.  The dusty stuff just blows away in the breeze and the coarser stuff lands in the bowl.  I've never tried it.

I think it's certainly worth trying if you can't get Swiss.  I believe that Track the Wolf sells screens of various sizes for this purpose. 

Chris.


  
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Grand slam
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #13 - Mar 30th, 2024 at 12:28am
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Randolph, thanks! I’ll dust off my copy of Mann’s book and re-read it…it’s been so long ago. BTW I’m Rex reading your Schuetzen books, thank you and I enjoy your art work.
Tried sifting some Swiss 1.5 today but I need some finer screens. I’m sure with the correct screen spacing and using two screens one would be able to get a closer +- grain size.
Tomorrow I need to make some sizing tools to get a consistent neck size for my .40-65 and PP bullets. It’s going to be tough on my neck, I missed last years BP 200 yard bench matches and I’m going to do my best to compete this year. Only a couple of weeks for the start of the matches. Also have to start shooting the .22 rf I’m building for this year s matches.
Cheers Richard
  
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CW
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Re: Sifting BP
Reply #14 - Apr 1st, 2024 at 1:14am
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I might be a little late on this, butt.....
I always imagined it counter to the goal to buy the best in graded powder, or screen what you have to improve the particle size, weigh and drop it in the case, and then compress the daylights out of it, making a solid plug of the top half, crushing all the uniform grains in the process.
  
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