Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Gaintwist (Read 2228 times)
belongtotom
Participating Member
*
Offline



Posts: 17
Joined: Feb 27th, 2016
Gaintwist
Nov 15th, 2023 at 1:19pm
Print Post  
How does one measure the twist of a gaintwist barrel ?. I have aquired a used RKS barrel mounted n a 44  1/2 frame and the rifle shoots just fine but for my own satisfaction I would like to know what  and or be able to measure the twist of the barrel . Thank you
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7393
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #1 - Nov 15th, 2023 at 5:20pm
Print Post  
We had a good discussion about this, 10 years ago.

All you ever wanted to know is here:

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
belongtotom
Participating Member
*
Offline



Posts: 17
Joined: Feb 27th, 2016
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #2 - Nov 15th, 2023 at 5:44pm
Print Post  
Thank s for the reply, now that is going to give me  something to ponder on .

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bohemianway
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 648
Location: Andover, MN
Joined: Apr 16th, 2004
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #3 - Nov 15th, 2023 at 6:49pm
Print Post  
Not sure how that discussion answers the question posed. My friend used a rotary encoder and linear encoder to take the data used to develop the analysis for figuring out Popes methods. It is a bit beyond the capability of most but the idea of using a protractor like those used for engine cam setting and calculating along with a ruler. Mount the barrel on your lathe carriage for the X to keep everything stable.

Charles
  
Back to top
GTalk  
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4107
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #4 - Nov 15th, 2023 at 8:02pm
Print Post  
I have seen the mechanism that changes the single point cutter's twist as it progresses down the barrel.

Ron Smith duplicated Harry Pope's mechanism.

A cable on a spool where the angle of the cable changes by moving the placement of the end further up the wall. 
This changes the rate of twist; increases the twist, as the cutter moves down the barrel. 
By how much is dependent on the angle of the cable on each side of the spool.

Simple mechanism controlling the cutter but I cannot explain how it changes the gain twist as it progresses down the barrel.

Ron had a table listing the start and finish twist depending on where the ends of the cable were located resulting in the angle of the cable before and after the spool.

But very difficult afterwards to measure the twist of a section of the barrel but Ron's table has all the data as to what the start and finish twist is.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

My .32 RKS 8 groove barrel starts at 20:1 and ends at 11.5:1.
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2023 at 10:20pm by Schuetzendave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Taylor
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1755
Location: Lewiston, ID
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2006
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #5 - Nov 17th, 2023 at 12:33pm
Print Post  
I have had customers ask if I could do a gain twist. It would require a bent sine bar on my machine. I don't believe in gain twist rifling so I'm not going to make a bent sine bar. I think of it this way, when the bullet starts moving and picking up speed it also increases in rpms as it increases speed. Why try to increase rpms at a faster rate. Might work better to start with a fast twist when the bullet is moving slower then go to a slower twist ( install a gain twist backwards). No real advantage.
  

John Taylor   Machinist/gunsmith
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4107
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #6 - Nov 17th, 2023 at 4:45pm
Print Post  
The high power long distance competition shooters burn out their barrels and need to replace them annually.

Using RKS gain twist barrels the high power shooters have confirmed they get a 10% to 15 % increased life span over using a straight twist barrel.

A gain twist barrel does not enhance or degrade accuracy. 
It only has a longer lifespan.

But for single shot rifles with a normal lifespan of at least 300,000 rounds many Schuetzen shooters probably do not care.

A gain twist barrel accelerates the rate of spin going down the barrel; whereas the straight twist barrel it has to jump to the fastest spin rate immediately upon ignition.

Does a faster jump start in a straight twist mean more lead can be sheared off which starts leading to occur sooner?

I am aware of a fellow who installed a gain twist backwards on his rifle and found it did not gyroscopically stabilize since it ended up decreasing the rate of spin to the point the bullet tumbled.
« Last Edit: Nov 17th, 2023 at 8:07pm by Schuetzendave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ssdave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1926
Location: Eastern Oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2004
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #7 - Nov 17th, 2023 at 4:59pm
Print Post  
Think all the benefits in a gain twist are that the rifling deformation on the bullet changes as it goes down the barrel, so the bullet is continually sealing on new, un-deformed metal and blows by less gas.  That results in better utilization of the propellant, less disturbance by gas blow-by at the muzzle, and less pressure/flame cutting of both the barrel and the bullet.  The less blow-by can help reduce leading slightly, and less blow-by and flame cutting could help extend barrel life.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John in PA
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 581
Location: Hollidaysburg, PA
Joined: Nov 3rd, 2009
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #8 - Nov 22nd, 2023 at 2:05pm
Print Post  
My only experience with gain twist vs straight twist is in Civil War muzzleloading artillery. I've shot target competition with my 10-Pounder Parrott Rifle since 1993. Many of those matches were on a military base with 4' x 6' targets at 1000-1200 yards.  The 3" Ordnance Rifle and the later (3" bore) 10-pdr Parrott shoot the same projectiles and the same charge of powder (1 lb FG GOEX) The Parrott has 3-groove gain twist rifling. The Ordnance Rifle has 7-groove constant twist rifling, 1 turn in 11 feet.  The final twist rate of the Parrott was 1 turn in 12 feet.   

Handled by equally-experienced gunners using identical projectiles, firing on the same range, under the same conditions, the Parrott will out-shoot the Ordnance Rifle most of the time. 
Proves very little I suppose, but it is my experience from 30+ years of shooting.   

Action:  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  

John Wells
Hollidaysburg, PA
Peabody and Peabody-Martini's Wanted!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chuckster
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2254
Location: Colorado
Joined: May 15th, 2008
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #9 - Nov 23rd, 2023 at 10:49am
Print Post  
Numbers from a while back said a gain twist is more important as the caliber increases.
Don't know if it is used in modern artillery. Progressive burning powder could negate the advantage.
Chuck
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SchwarzStock
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1241
Location: SchwarzWald
Joined: Mar 23rd, 2010
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #10 - Nov 23rd, 2023 at 2:36pm
Print Post  
To sort of reflect on what John Taylor wrote, I am thinking most of us are shooting rifles with "gain twist". As the bullet accelerates down the bore the RPM's are building until the bullet pops out the end. The exception would be if the barrel is too long and pressure is not building throughout "barrel flight" but rather beginning to drop off because the propellant has been completely consumed and friction in the bore is causing the bullet to slow.
  

If your rifle is not in 7.62 and you can't hit what you are aiming at with de-linked machinegun ammo you are a pretender.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 16733
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #11 - Nov 23rd, 2023 at 2:49pm
Print Post  
What could be considered too of a fast twist rate, could be just fine if the final twist rate was a gain twist barrel. Trying to fire a load in a barrel with the final faster twist rate might not shoot as well as one gradually increased by a gain twist rifling system.
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chuckster
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2254
Location: Colorado
Joined: May 15th, 2008
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #12 - Nov 24th, 2023 at 1:42pm
Print Post  
Another lecture  Wink. The purpose of a gain twist is to minimize the peak torque on the bullet. Peak torque is a function of acceleration, not velocity.
For a uniform twist, the bullet torque curve would look much like the pressure curve of the powder burning. Peak at the breech and decreasing toward the muzzle.
Minimum torque is achieved by applying a constant torque to the bullet from breech to muzzle. Minimum torque-maximum acceleration time.
This technique can reduce the peak torque on the bullet by approximately one half. This would vary based on the pressure curve of the powder.
A straight line twist rate change of a little less than 2:1 will approximate a constant torque on the bullet.
That said: Torque required to spin a bullet of rifle calibers are so low that they are easily resisted by the bullet.
Gain twist appears to be a wonderful solution to a problem that does not exist for rifle calibers. Lower forces would increase barrel life.
Chuck
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Flatlander
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 623
Location: Warm Arizona
Joined: Apr 24th, 2004
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #13 - Nov 30th, 2023 at 3:37pm
Print Post  
Curiosity has the best of me. How many of the current ASSRA records were shot with a gain twist barrel? 
Flatlander
« Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2023 at 9:42pm by Flatlander »  

NRA Life
ASSRA Member 3197
Charcoal Burner
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartiniBelgian
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1707
Location: Aarschot
Joined: Jun 7th, 2004
Re: Gaintwist
Reply #14 - Nov 30th, 2023 at 3:48pm
Print Post  
I have 1 rifle with a gaintwist barrel, and it might be the most accurate .45 BPCR I have.  Could be coincidience, of course.  It is used shooting PP bullets, that might also make a difference.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint