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Grand slam
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Tuning lowall action
Sep 6th, 2023 at 12:20am
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I have been shooting a low wall Winder ‘87 in .22lr in the local matches and it’s shooting inside of one inch at a 100 yards most of the time. It’s got a good, I think, Shilen 4 groove ratchet bbl. there is a problem with the action though. When it’s closed the breech block (bb)is not parallel to the barrel breech face. When it’s locked up the bb just kisses the bottom of the barrel tenon and at the top of the tenon a .007” feeler gage just slips in. There is no extractor fitted. Basically the bb face has a .007” though taper. How much or how little do you cognoscenti think that affects accuracy? 
Thanks Richard
« Last Edit: Sep 6th, 2023 at 9:01am by Grand slam »  
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uscra112
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Re: Tuning lowball action
Reply #1 - Sep 6th, 2023 at 1:05am
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Creighton Audette did a study of this issue with respect to the 30 caliber military high-power rifle.  Published in the Rifleman in the ('70s?) In a nutshell, his conclusion was "quite a lot".
  

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GT
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Re: Tuning lowball action
Reply #2 - Sep 6th, 2023 at 9:24am
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Richard,
For how it is shooting for you, I'd leave it alone.  The effect of the angle on the base of the case, about .002" over the diameter of that cartridges base.  A few originals I've checked live with that much.  Attaching a number to the accuracy effect? In a 22rf with mass produced ammo even with quality ammo? I won't venture there.
Most folks measuring with their calipers can't consistently measure much closer than what you have.   

If it's a mental thing and it's going to eventually cause doubt in your shooting, remove the bbl, measure the differences top to bottom, side to side from the face of the action.  Remove the bb, set it up in a toolmaker's vise on your surface grinder and shim things so you get exactly the differences in your setup on the grinder- and kiss those surfaces. Be sure and measure two or three times to confirm everything and you will take misalignment to zero.   
You will have to set the barrel back, re-time it, re-cut the chamber, re-harden the bb face, adjust the flat spring with a new dovetail block, offset to accomodate the shortened distance for the flat spring... or being a Winder, it has a coil? Re-fit the forend to the action, what'd I miss? Grin

I've seen the rest of your work and you've shared results on this build, there is nothing to doubt what you have going as is, leave it be and start a new one.  Grin

With the number of 1885's I play with, class and all, I made a ring gage that is a class 3 fit to most threads and the faces are perpendicular as close as my equipment can measure to the pitch line.  This gives me a means to measure and true the action and the breech block.  Attached pictures of what that looks like.   Is it worth the effort, not usually for the 22. 
Good Luck
Greg
  

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uscra112
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Re: Tuning lowall action
Reply #3 - Sep 6th, 2023 at 11:13am
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None of that is necessary.  Modify the breechblock by installing a cover plate as is done when converting a rimfire to centerfire. Machine the plate square and to the correct headspace and voila!

I'm in the middle of doing this for Stevens Favorite right now.

Would be interesting, however, to study the squareness of your ammo first.  I don't know if the .22 benchresters do that, but of they do then there'll be a tool

A photo of an unfinished Stevens 44 block I did this to, a long time ago.
  

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GT
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Re: Tuning lowall action
Reply #4 - Sep 6th, 2023 at 1:19pm
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Here's a common occurrence I've seen with my inspection setup, even with better ammo so what does that tell you?
  

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk"  T. A. Edison
"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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jhm
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Re: Tuning lowall action
Reply #5 - Sep 6th, 2023 at 1:49pm
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Based on your picture I think I would leave it as is. If 22 lr ammo is no better than that the best most square surfaces in the world won't help much...


JMH
  
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uscra112
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Re: Tuning lowall action
Reply #6 - Sep 6th, 2023 at 2:06pm
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Unless you're going to inspect every round to cull the bad ones, which is mighty tedious.
  

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Re: Tuning lowall action
Reply #7 - Sep 6th, 2023 at 2:46pm
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it adds challenge for sure...  I have it in my notes somewhere what the average is for a box, doesn't seem to matter, 10X, Match, CX, Midas, R100, SK, Bia...  This little spin makes it fast to cull but is it really worth it? can't say, I may develop an opinion in another 500k  rounds.  So far, 100k hasn't given me anything warm and fuzzy. 

Once it's shot, you can definitely tell if your chamber and BB are square so maybe it does matter? Running a fired case on this...
  

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk"  T. A. Edison
"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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Re: Tuning lowall action
Reply #8 - Sep 6th, 2023 at 2:52pm
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Thought I had a gif of this with a fired case, can't find it... The only wobble was where the fp smashed out the rim a bit - positive ignition.
  

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk"  T. A. Edison
"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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SchwarzStock
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Re: Tuning lowall action
Reply #9 - Sep 6th, 2023 at 4:13pm
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I was thinking there were some notes on impacts of a non-square bolt face in Harold Vaughn's book "Rifle Accuracy Facts" but I can't find my copy. I am hoping it was not one of the books I had to through away due to water damage when I was living in Singen. Anyone have a copy they can review?
  

If your rifle is not in 7.62 and you can't hit what you are aiming at with de-linked machinegun ammo you are a pretender.
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uscra112
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Re: Tuning lowall action
Reply #10 - Sep 6th, 2023 at 10:02pm
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GT wrote on Sep 6th, 2023 at 2:52pm:
Thought I had a gif of this with a fired case, can't find it... The only wobble was where the fp smashed out the rim a bit - positive ignition.


Fireformed, ready to reprime and reload!
  

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Grand slam
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Re: Tuning lowall action
Reply #11 - Sep 7th, 2023 at 11:13am
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Hi Greg thanks for chiming in. It just may be a mental thing as you suggested. It’s not off by much when you take into consideration the diameter of the case base. I think I may fix it this winter after the matches are over. The Shilen bbl is chrome moly but I just finished fitting a SS Lilja 6 groove. It looks like it groups a bit better than the Shilen at this stage of the game. I’ve noted that group size decreases, up to a point, the more you shoot a new a .22 rf bbl. I haven’t a clue what’s the best accuracy I can expect or people are getting out of a Winchester/Winder low wall.
SchwartzStock, I check out what Vaughn said about this subject. I’ve got his book downloaded, thanks.
Cheers Richard
  
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