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waterman
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A High Wall in .30-06
Aug 15th, 2023 at 7:47pm
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Terry Buffum sent me this link:

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I've looked at the link and I'm scratching my head.  There was a rimmed "pre-30-03 Springfield" .30 caliber case made at Frankford Arsenal in the summer of 1900.  Hackley, Woodin & Scranton, Vol. 1, pages 96 & 97 tell us that the case length was 2.68" and that 11,985 rounds were loaded.   

If someone had access to even a few hundred rounds, he could have ordered a High Wall chambered for the cartridge.  I read the paperwork offered with the sale.  I think that part genuine.  I don't think just any shooter would have access to that ammunition.  Who might have ordered the rifle?  That's an interesting bit of High Wall history.

But I can't make the photos match the later description "rechambered to .30-06".  Is that a 30" barrel?  And the left side of the action does not look like a High Wall set up for rimless cartridges.  What say you?   

  
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gwahir
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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #1 - Aug 15th, 2023 at 9:42pm
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I have no information but I do have a question; what is the purpose of that screw through the left side wall up by the top of the hammer? Related to rimless extractor function?
  
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Old-Win
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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #2 - Aug 15th, 2023 at 10:54pm
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There were twenty seven of these highwalls built for the 1913 Palma match. They were registered as 30-06 rimmed in the ledger but the early research letter states rimless. This has caused some considerable arguments about whether they are rimmed or rimless. 
A later research letter shows that they are actually rimmed as recorded in the ledger. I handled 2 of these that Jim Goergen owned but never thought to look close at the chamber. The screw on the left side of the receiver is actually a safety block that was required on the rifles to be used in that match. There is also argument whether the rifles were actually used in the Palma match or some other type of match as teams were supposed to use their country's service rifle at that time.
  
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waterman
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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #3 - Aug 16th, 2023 at 2:59pm
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I went back to Campbell's "Winchester Single Shot" books. Vol. 1, pp. 164-168 has photos of the rifle in this auction.  One photo shows the large head screw of the F.F. Burton extractor on the left side.  I missed that. The Burton extractor was for rimless cartridges.  Campbell tells us this rifle is from the Michael Brennan collection.

Vol. 2, pp. 127-131 tells us more about these rifles. My reading causes me to believe the rifles were originally made in rimless .30-06 caliber.  My conclusion is that the "rimmed .30-06" stems from an error (in 1913) in Winchester paperwork.

Campbell called these rifles "International Match" rifles and that's what they were.  It was (is?) a match fired at 300 meters.  The rules of the day required a competitor to use a rifle chambered for his country's military cartridge.  Not the military rifle, just the cartridge case.  That match is why we see the 1920s & 1930s era Hammerli actions with Springfield barrels.  And that match was usually won with rifles chambered for the 6.5x55 Swedish cartridge, hence it's reputation for accuracy.

The cartridge case was all that was required, not the full power military load. You can read about the loads in Hatcher's Notebook or in Sharpe's Complete Guide to Handloading.  In velocity, they were somewhere between factory .30-30 and .30-40 Krag loads and were easily something a High Wall made for smokeless powder could handle.
  
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Old-Win
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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #4 - Aug 16th, 2023 at 6:53pm
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Good info Waterman. I handled two of these rifles some time ago and I didn't know about the debate over rimmed vs rimless or it would have been easy for me to check.  Campbell says "rimless" and is a well known authority and Bert Hartman, another well known 1885 authority says "rimmed." I'm including some pictures from an old RIA auction so we can see the precise location of the so called "Burton rimless extraction."  It doesn't line up with front of the breech block where the extractor sits unless the spring is of some length. The interlock is visible in the center of the hammer.  The screw and the interlock line up in the photo so do the work together? Read the 1884 Cody letter as well.  The debate goes on unless somebody buys that rifle and solves it once for all. Cheesy
  
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MrTipUp
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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #5 - Aug 16th, 2023 at 10:24pm
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The rules of the day required a competitor to use a rifle chambered for his country's military cartridge.  Not the military rifle, just the cartridge case.

If Winchester adhered to the above rule, the rifles would've had to be chambered for the .30-06 rimless cartridge.

Bill Lawrence
  
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waterman
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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #6 - Aug 17th, 2023 at 4:11am
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MrTipUp wrote on Aug 16th, 2023 at 10:24pm:
The rules of the day required a competitor to use a rifle chambered for his country's military cartridge.  Not the military rifle, just the cartridge case.

If Winchester adhered to the above rule, the rifles would've had to be chambered for the .30-06 rimless cartridge.

Bill Lawrence


Plus, what would be the source of cartridge cases?  Most of those 11,985 rimmed .30 "pre-1903" cases from the summer of 1900 haven't survived today.  Were there enough of them around in 1913.  Once again, the rimmed case is just a Winchester clerical error by cw, or whoever supplied him (or her?) with information.
  
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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #7 - Aug 18th, 2023 at 1:23pm
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The rifle sold for $3377 with the 10% premium.  Hopefully whoever bought it will come looking for brass if it is rimmed.

Jack
  

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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #8 - Aug 18th, 2023 at 6:45pm
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Somewhere amongst all my mess of papers I have an article that shows how to make rimmed 30-06 cases by pressing a brass ring onto the extractor groove, the author was making straight rimmed cases for some rifle he’d built, the process involved a lathe, a large hydraulic press and custom made forming dies to squeeze the brass
Gumpy
  
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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #9 - Aug 18th, 2023 at 7:33pm
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I think you can use 9.3x74R as the parent case IIRC
  
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JerryH
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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #10 - Aug 18th, 2023 at 9:10pm
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Cbashooter wrote on Aug 18th, 2023 at 7:33pm:
I think you can use 9.3x74R as the parent case IIRC


This is correct. A friend did that to make a rimmed version of a 25-06.
  

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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #11 - Feb 22nd, 2024 at 2:24pm
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I'm the current owner of the rifle referenced in this thread and which was sold at auction last August.  It is most certainly chambered for the standard 30-06 rimless cartridge, and was shipped in that configuration from the factory on August 16, 1913.  I've done a considerable amount of research on these specially manufactured International Match rifles.  There is a short article in the current edition (Winter 2024) of "The Winchester Collector" that I co-authored with Bert Hartman and which we plan to expand upon in a future issue.  My recent research has uncovered a significant amount of "new" information originally published in 1913-1915 that tells a pretty complete story about these rifles, and is not included in Campbell's books or other more recent publications.   

I will have a display table at the Dakota Territory Trophy Show in Sioux Falls SD scheduled for March 23-24, 2024.  The display will feature this rifle and the story of its use in the International Union "Free Rifle" championship matchs held at Camp Perry in 1913.  If you're at the show, please stop by.
  
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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #12 - Feb 22nd, 2024 at 4:23pm
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Adam, Thanks for that great information which helps solve some of the mystery on these rifles. Is this show the one that's normally held about this time of the year in Sioux Falls, or is this the later one?  I haven't  been to either in about 5 years.
  
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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #13 - Feb 22nd, 2024 at 7:47pm
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I'm not a Winchester guy, but it's topics like this one that make this site so great!
This is just fascinating history whether you're into High Walls or not! Great read!
  

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Re: A High Wall in .30-06
Reply #14 - Feb 22nd, 2024 at 8:33pm
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I Am kinda of a highwall guy & i am interested in the button on the side of reciever & saftey in the hamner. I don't have a lot if reference books to check out, but i would like to know more about those variations if anyone would like to explain.
  
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