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uscra112
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"Black Powder Pressures"
May 17th, 2023 at 11:07pm
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Been musing on loadings for my old Stevens 44s, which led me to want to know just exactly how much pressure black powder really does generate on firing.  A rabbit hole with no bottom, it seems.  One source seems imply as much as 29kpsi for a .32-40 load using FF powder, which seems a bit much to me.

The only remotely quantitative data I've come up with is an eight-year-old Texas-Mac page.   
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Anybody know of any pressure test data using reliably calibrated modern equipment?
  

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Ranch13
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #1 - May 18th, 2023 at 12:55am
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Best bet it too look up the SAAMI pressure specs for some of these originally bp rounds, and that's about where they most likely determined the blackpowder pressures are.
The Lyman 50th edition handbook has blackpowder and pyrodex data for the 32-40 with the 160 gr cast bullet, running around 16K cup. One could surmise that any smokeless load that has pressure data in the 16-18 K range would be safe in a well maintained stevens.
Interesting that the 47th edition has blackpowder pressure data for the 45-70, but it's clear at the end of the Ruger #1 only loads. Shocked
  
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uscra112
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #2 - May 18th, 2023 at 1:08am
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Thanks.   After I posted here I managed to turn up this:

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Guy has done a mountain of work, but his presentation as a Google Document is so disorganized that it's going to take me forever to sort it out.  Tables with no column headings, graphs somehow conflated as .GIF files that won't hold still long enough to be read, and my firewall keeps throwing errors which are probably captures of G00gle machinations.  Still, it'll keep me out of mischief for a few days.   

Phil

ps. interesting that neither Startpage nor DuckDuckGo reported this URL.   I had to use the Cast Boolits search function to find it.
  

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Dellet
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #3 - May 18th, 2023 at 4:02am
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Meant to post this earlier, but got sidetracked

Brian Austin, posts on many forums as Savvy Jack, has done a lot of work using the Pressure Trace system. All with 44-40, well worth the time to search “Chasing the 44-40” And some of his discussion on various forums, his own website linked below.

His posts in the Winchester collector forum are worth looking up.

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The forums own GT has also worked with the Pressure Trace system, and has posted some results here in the past.



  
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uscra112
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #4 - May 18th, 2023 at 4:39am
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That's the guy - Savvy Jack.  For some reason he's now banned on Cast Boolits, and all his uploaded attachments have been deleted.
  

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ndnchf
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #5 - May 18th, 2023 at 7:13am
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uscra112 wrote on May 18th, 2023 at 4:39am:
That's the guy - Savvy Jack.  For some reason he's now banned on Cast Boolits, and all his uploaded attachments have been deleted.



I believe he worked with the late John Kort. John did a lot of deep research on the .44WCF cartridge and ballistics.  His testing and ballistic data got me started using Reloader 7 in pistol size rifle cartridges.   His testing showed that a full case of Reloader 7 in a .44 WCF was just about equal in velocity and pressure to an 1880s vintage .44 WCF cartridge.  

A lot of good info on Savvy Jack's web site:
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Duck_Rider
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #6 - May 18th, 2023 at 8:04am
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Testing with pressure trace. 45/70 500 gr. Lyman 457406 24" bbl.
45g Shockley Gold FFG 1134fps 18600psi
45g American Select FFFG 1195fps  23350psi
60g Goex FG 1078fps 19450psi
62g Goex FFG 1119fps 21950psi
65g Goex FFFG 1191fps 25750psi
42g Pyrodex P 1123fps 28400psi
42g Triple 7 1192fps 28300psi
23g IMR SR4759 1281fps 24750psi
  
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Dellet
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #7 - May 18th, 2023 at 9:36am
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Duck_Rider wrote on May 18th, 2023 at 8:04am:
Testing with pressure trace. 45/70 500 gr. Lyman 457406 24" bbl.
45g Shockley Gold FFG 1134fps 18600psi
45g American Select FFFG 1195fps  23350psi
60g Goex FG 1078fps 19450psi
62g Goex FFG 1119fps 21950psi
65g Goex FFFG 1191fps 25750psi
42g Pyrodex P 1123fps 28400psi
42g Triple 7 1192fps 28300psi
23g IMR SR4759 1281fps 24750psi

I’m interested to know how/where you attached the sensor to the barrel.

I have considered buying the Pressure Trace, but my interest is smaller cartridges. It seems according the the instructions I have read you want the sensor over the case. This would put the sensor on the action instead of the barrel. 

The other issue seems to be “Ammo of known Pressure” to use for calibration.

Any, help, advice insights appreciated.

Sadly your previous posts and information is hard to find since the software change. I remembered seeing them, couldn’t remember your name. 

Thanks for the above information
  
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GT
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #8 - May 18th, 2023 at 9:47am
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Duck Rider,
thank you very much for that bit of info!
Would you share some of the specifics on your setup?  barrel shape and diameter, action, etc.
I've finished a Hepburn build in 44-77 and have a strain gage positioned on it.  I'm planning some testing in the next week or so. 
Greg
  

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uscra112
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #9 - May 18th, 2023 at 10:43am
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Quote:
I have considered buying the Pressure Trace, but my interest is smaller cartridges. It seems according the the instructions I have read you want the sensor over the case. This would put the sensor on the action instead of the barrel.


Looked into the Pressure Trace myself, but also have doubts since the largest cartridge I'd use it for would be the .28-30-120, and the rifles I would want to test have octagon barrels.   

Would like to know how Duck Rider did his calibration, as well as all the other details.
  

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Dellet
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #10 - May 18th, 2023 at 11:59am
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Until we hear from him,

Older thread on the subject with some of his findings.

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Duck_Rider
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #11 - May 18th, 2023 at 1:09pm
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I basically use dedicated pressure bbls. I have 3 98 mauser actions 1 for 30/06 head size, 1 for belted magnum (300 H&H), 1 for large rimmed cases (348,45/70, etc). I have a cut down 94 stevens shotgun action that I use for smaller rifles & pistols.It looks crude but has worked well for many thousands of rounds. I locate were I will install gauge & carefully mike the bbl od at this point. Then I make a chamber cast & mike the case at the same point. Then section a case at the same point & mike the wall thickness. This gives all the parameters for the initial starting point. Finding a known pressure load for a common cartridge is not a problem as there are many pressure tested loads that can be found in loading manuals. This is where the fun begins, trying to work out the different variables. I do not use the increase or decrease of pressure in the program as this is a static result. I have worked out dynamic way which is fairly complicated. But has proven to work over a wide rage of pressures. I hope this is of some help? Harry
  
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #12 - May 18th, 2023 at 4:10pm
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Duck_Rider wrote on May 18th, 2023 at 1:09pm:
I basically use dedicated pressure bbls. I have 3 98 mauser actions 1 for 30/06 head size, 1 for belted magnum (300 H&H), 1 for large rimmed cases (348,45/70, etc). I have a cut down 94 stevens shotgun action that I use for smaller rifles & pistols.It looks crude but has worked well for many thousands of rounds. I locate were I will install gauge & carefully mike the bbl od at this point. Then I make a chamber cast & mike the case at the same point. Then section a case at the same point & mike the wall thickness. This gives all the parameters for the initial starting point. Finding a known pressure load for a common cartridge is not a problem as there are many pressure tested loads that can be found in loading manuals. This is where the fun begins, trying to work out the different variables. I do not use the increase or decrease of pressure in the program as this is a static result. I have worked out dynamic way which is fairly complicated. But has proven to work over a wide rage of pressures. I hope this is of some help? Harry


Thank you 
  
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uscra112
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #13 - May 18th, 2023 at 5:48pm
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Does a pattern emerge?  That BP in pistol and small rifle cases generates less pressure than big rifle cases?  Assuming 100% load density in all examples, how can this be?
« Last Edit: May 19th, 2023 at 5:16am by uscra112 »  

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Duck_Rider
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Re: "Black Powder Pressures"
Reply #14 - May 19th, 2023 at 7:49am
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I haven't loaded any smaller cases with black. I only shoot smokeless. The 45/70 was done for a close friend. But it would be an interesting test. I can do 25/20 wcf, 32/20, 32 win spcl, 33 wcf, 38/55, 38/56, 38/40 & 44/40. What 4 or 5 calibres would the group here find most interesting & I will try to test them in the next 30 days & give the results.
Harry
  
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