Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting (Read 1727 times)
texasmac
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1901
Location: Central Texas
Joined: Aug 16th, 2004
Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Dec 16th, 2022 at 2:11am
Print Post  
I’ve been doing a lot of research on shooting offhand since it’s the main limiting factor of my silhouette scores. I’m seriously considering shortening my 1874 Sharps .40-65 barrel by 4” (30” to 26”) & taking 1” off the stock to reduce the length-of-pull due to my relatively short arms. Shortening the barrel will reduce the overall weight & will move the rifle balance point closer to but still slightly forward of the forearm location where I hold it with my left hand. Since I use a scope, reducing the sight radius is not a major concern, but it will likely reduce the muzzle velocity a bit. My current BP loads result in a muzzle velocity of 1270fps. Can anyone offer an educated guess on how much the velocity will drop?

Wayne
  

NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Dusty Texian
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 58
Joined: Aug 20th, 2013
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #1 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 9:40am
Print Post  
Not the same cartridge or rifle , but may be of interest . Shooting the same load 210 gr. bullet over 57 gr. Bp. in my 40-60 wcf . My 22" gun gives 1,450 fps average , same load in my 26" gun gives 1,550 fps . range and the 28" gun about 50 fps more . In my guns about 25 fps per in . on average .  DT
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ranch13
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 548
Location: East Central Wy.
Joined: Jan 20th, 2018
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #2 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 10:42am
Print Post  
Shiloh barrels are choked, so taking 4 inches off may affect the accuracy.
If you modify anything maybe shortening the length of pull will help, but it will also make a drastic change on your prone position.
Best bet is like Steve told you on the Shiloh forum, work on your offhand position and technique.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
texasmac
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1901
Location: Central Texas
Joined: Aug 16th, 2004
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #3 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 11:35am
Print Post  
Dusty, thanks for the velocity differences with your loads.  Based on your results I'm guessing it would result in about 20fps/inch with my load or around a total drop of 80fps.

Ranch, I just checked with Lucinda at Shiloh to discuss the modification & get a price for the work.  There is a common misconception that Shiloh chokes their barrels which Lucinda said is definitely not true.  None of their barrels are choked.

Wayne
  

NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Ranch13
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 548
Location: East Central Wy.
Joined: Jan 20th, 2018
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #4 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 11:47am
Print Post  
Well is she says so but most of mine are tighter at the muzzle than the breech... I have 8 of them...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ranch13
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 548
Location: East Central Wy.
Joined: Jan 20th, 2018
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #5 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 11:52am
Print Post  
Quite frankly I think you'll be better off to just order another rifle in the configuration you want, with the shorter barrel and length of pull.
That way if it doesn't work out then you can sell it, or if it does then you can sell the other one.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 16136
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #6 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 11:58am
Print Post  
Almost every barrel has choke to it, even when it's not designed to be choked. It simply happens since barrels are rifled from one end. That's why barrel makers mark the breech end for customers to ensure their barrels are installed correctly. Installing them backwards leads to very poor accuracy.
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
condorsc
Full Member
***
Offline


NRA Life/Benefactor, ASSRA,
SCV Life

Posts: 152
Location: Beaufort, S.C.
Joined: Nov 13th, 2021
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #7 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 12:59pm
Print Post  
Also, the mark used to denote the runout- you either installed the mark on top or on the bottom, else you would build in an accuracy error. I assume they still do this.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
boats
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7551
Location: Virginia
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2004
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #8 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 2:13pm
Print Post  
If you are shooting NRA rule BPCS velocity on the 200 yard chicken target is irrelevant. It’s light and any reasonable load will knock it over.

It’s sort of a not fish or fowl match. KD on Rams many worry about but until you are shooting at the highest level, winning or losing by a single target, hitting more  targets is the key. And some Rams are set so even 45/70 won’t knock down 100 % Other words working on offhand Chicken scores  is worth doing. Chicken score real separator top level vs the rest.

Stock fit is important and if too long worth the alteration. How the buttplate contacts the shoulder a key point too. BPCS rules  don’t allow much curve to the Plate. My long time BPCS rifle has as much curve as the rule allows and it helps with muzzle weight control . My # 2 rifle has a flat plate, because it switches to heavy recoil cartridges sometimes, and likes to slip if not careful . It’s best shot with a well padded vest that’s a bit sticky on the pad. Bet your 40/65 outfit is flat plate too. 

Most like a muzzle heavy rifle & all mine are, have had some too muzzle heavy and mostly added weight under the buttplate rather than reduce on the barrel end . I did have CPA re-profile a # 4 barrel to # 3 when it was just too heavy.

Far as shortening barrels, years ago Small Bore, Bolt action, silhouette shooters, all 4 critters shot offhand, believed in Short. When the rules changed favoring same gun Hunter & Silhouette rifle class majority went back to long. Overall weight rule Hunter class lower need long to get balance muzzle heavy.

Personally I think weight forward is good, both guns same overall weight don’t see any advantage short barrel vs long offhand guns. That’s opinion, not held by all.

One more. I hold my rifle thumb and forefingers front of the CPA lever, elbow on left hip. Never touch  the forearm wood. Many shooters hold front hand out on the stock elbow not supported, it’s not as steady. Close support elbow on hip awkward position until learned. After many years hip rest could not shoot well any other way. 

Boats
« Last Edit: Dec 16th, 2022 at 2:21pm by boats »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Old-Win
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1674
Location: Minnesota
Joined: Nov 24th, 2005
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #9 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 4:09pm
Print Post  
Shilen, Douglas, Krieger, Pac-Nor and others all air gauge their barrels and that is one of their key selling points. I don't see how a barrel that is uniform in diameter that has a button pulled through it, if button rifled can have a choke in the barrel. Hand lapped barrels and machine lapped barrels should have at least an inch cut off of them at the muzzle as the lap is never pushed clear through the barrel. Some companies have now started machine lapping their barrels with a new Sunnen hone . It is accurate to within a few millionths of an inch. Pac-Nor is one company that does this now and Green Mountain is advertising some of their barrels as being honed. Barrels are usually marked on the breach end with their diameters because that's the only good place they can mark them. That way the installer can determine which end is the larger if there's a small taper in the barrel.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
texasmac
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1901
Location: Central Texas
Joined: Aug 16th, 2004
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #10 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 4:33pm
Print Post  
Although Lucinda at Shiloh assured me there was no choke in the barrel, due to Ranch's & Marlinguy's comments I just did the following.

I ran several dry & lubed real tight patch down the bore several times & no choke is evident.  So I then drove a lubed bullet about ½ way down the bore from the breech & then back out of the breech followed by driving another bullet all the way through & out the muzzle.  I could not measure a difference is either bore or groove diameter between the two bullets.  So I’m convinced my rifle does not have a choke.

Wayne
  

NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
texasmac
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1901
Location: Central Texas
Joined: Aug 16th, 2004
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #11 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 4:44pm
Print Post  
boats wrote on Dec 16th, 2022 at 2:13pm:

..............I hold my rifle thumb and forefingers front of the CPA lever, elbow on left hip. Never touch  the forearm wood. Many shooters hold front hand out on the stock elbow not supported, it’s not as steady. Close support elbow on hip awkward position until learned. After many years hip rest could not shoot well any other way. 
Boats


Boats, thanks for the excellent comments.  Your rifle holding technique is essentially the same as mine. 
BTW, rgchristensen (Chris) assured me you really know what you're talking about.   Smiley

Wayne
  

NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4051
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #12 - Dec 16th, 2022 at 5:37pm
Print Post  
Best success would be to change the stock to a Schuetzen style.

Unfortunately the Silhouette rules state you must have the rifle's original style stock to compete in competitions.

In  Schuetzen competitions over the years I have found a heavier barrel will drop straight down over the target whereas lighter barrels start wavering in a figure eight pattern.

Best improvements for offhand practice is learning how to shoot offhand as opposed to trying to modify your firearm.

Best trick for offhand shooting is close your eyes, then open them to see where your rife is pointed.
Then move your feet to adjust your point of aim.
Most people move their position by moving their arms but this then results in muscle tension while holding the rifle that causes movement at the time of shot.
Retrain your self to hold the rifle properly so you do not incorporate muscle tension when holding the rifle.

A heavier barrel that drops straight down over the target is easier for your brain to sight with than a lighter barrel doing a figure eight dance.

Choked barrels can be shortened without affecting accuracy as long as the muzzle is properly crowned.

Ron Smith has done this for customers who use his continuously tapered barrels and it is not a problem with straight twist barrels.

However if it is a gain twist barrel the final twist may not be as tight requiring you to need to use a shorter bullet.

For Silhouette five shot strings a heavier barrel is a better choice.
However in the Schuetzen game where you have 50 shot events we do shorten the barrel due to the amount of time you have to hold the rifle.
« Last Edit: Dec 16th, 2022 at 6:07pm by Schuetzendave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
texasmac
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1901
Location: Central Texas
Joined: Aug 16th, 2004
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #13 - Dec 19th, 2022 at 7:01pm
Print Post  
Hey guys,

I certainly appreciate all the comments & suggestions.  If I decide to go forward with shortening the barrel I'll post the results on my chicken scores here.

Wayne
  

NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
rr2241tx
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 108
Location: San Marcos
Joined: Mar 27th, 2012
Re: Modifying Sharps to improve offhand shooting
Reply #14 - Dec 19th, 2022 at 7:56pm
Print Post  
Wayne, you’re welcome to try my Sharps. I had it cut back from 32” to 28”, but I still could not see my sights. It felt better while missing chickens. Tom
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint