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Mick B
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Bullet swage die question
Nov 15th, 2022 at 10:33pm
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I have been thinking of getting a swage die to run mu 40 cal lubricated bullets through to make them more uniform dia wise.
My current bullet of choice is the BACO 400 gr Money Bullet which drops at .408"- 409"my plan was to run them through a swage die to get them to a more uniform dia. My questions are as follows.
Q #1  Is this a worthwhile idea.
Q #2  has anyone tried it, what was the result .
Q #3  was there an improvement in accuracy.
Q #3 Who makes such a die.
Q #4 What is the cost.

Cheers 
Mike.
  
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Cbashooter
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #1 - Nov 15th, 2022 at 11:01pm
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back in my CBA gas check Benchrest days that was very common.We called then bump dies. The swage die was made to match the chamber dimensions of your rifles throat. it improved accuracy of bullets that previously didn't shoot well due to poor bullet fit.i still use two I have in 30 and 35 and find them a help for accuracy.Im not sure who makes them anymore but Hanned Precision years ago marketed the co-ax die that was made for that purpose.Eagan made a "T-die" that worked in a lubesizer  and you ran the bullet nose first  with a flat nose punch.It worked quite well as the taper was cut to your throat angle.
  
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ISS
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #2 - Nov 16th, 2022 at 4:21am
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When Dean Miller built my Schuetzen Rifle he had a dentist friend named Doc Brewer in Louisiana.  Doc was friends with a gentleman named Blackmon, who ran BSS (Blackmon Swaging Supply).  He made a copy of the old Ted Smith (?) Mighty-Mite swaging press.  He had me send him half a dozen bullets from a Jerry Barnett semi-spitzer mold I had cast, and then breech seated in my rifle.  Blackmon then machined a swaging die for the rifle.  It sized the bullet to fit the throat with just a couple ten-thousandths of an inch interference fit.  Eased it in.

Rich
  
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Mick B
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #3 - Nov 17th, 2022 at 11:44pm
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Still looking for info.
Mike
  
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Cbashooter
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #4 - Nov 17th, 2022 at 11:59pm
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[quote author=4C68626A5E43010 link=1668569635/3#3 date=1668746655]Still looking for info.


Q #1  Is this a worthwhile idea.  YES
Q #2  has anyone tried it, what was the result .YES ,see above posts
Q #3  was there an improvement in accuracy. YES
Q #3 Who makes such a die.Corbin
Q #4 What is the cost.  for cost I'd estimate over $300 .Best to contact Dave though.


  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #5 - Nov 18th, 2022 at 9:17am
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I recall a long discussion in The Fouling Shot way back when, which eventually classified a bump die as legal for CBA use.

Swaging of cast bullets was not an allowed practice, as it pressed the lead into a uniform shape that may or may not have much, if any, resemblance to the original casting.  This would violate the original goal of the Association, which was to maximize cast bullet accuracy.

Sizing of cast bullets was a long established practice, which, ideally, only uniformed the diameter of the casting to the optimum fit to the bore without changing the overall shape.  This was unarguably legal for CBA competition.

Bumping the bullet was a bone of contention, since the arrangement not only modified the diameter of the bullet, but also modified the nose shape so it was an exact fit to the leade of the rifle’s bore.  Some people objected to this because they said it moved the processing of the cast bullet into the area of swaging, which, IMO it did.

However, the change was only in the nose diameter and maybe a slight change in the ogive shape.  And this was back in the dark ages when only Hoch (as far as I know) offered lathe-bored mould cavities.  Egan was the main man for match grade molds back then, and they were cut with cherries to a standard shape.  Nobody had CNC equipment and flash drives full of programs which could be tweaked for tiny changes in configuration, so bumping was allowed, after some controversy.  I would doubt that the allowance would go today, with the vast number of offerings from Accurate, NOE, Arsenal, and other manufacturers, and the ability to modify diameters, or even order a custom overall shape.

But it sounds to me like the OP just wants a uniform diameter for his castings.  One of those Lee sizing setups would be fine for that, or even a properly set-up lubrisizer with the appropriate die and nose punch.

My black-powder target bullets all come from custom moulds, and don’t really need sizing as such.  The grease-groove castings go through dies that just touch the outside diameter of the “lands” on the bullet, while the grooves are filled with lubricant.  A custom sizer die, or even a standard offering that is actually the nominal diameter, would be all that’s needed, I would think.
  
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Mick B
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #6 - Nov 18th, 2022 at 6:12pm
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Bent ramrod, thanks for that detailed reply, I figured that such a die might be expensive, but not that expensive at $300 US.
Looks like this idea is getting put on the backburner for a 
later time.
Again thanks for all the replies, much appreciated.
Mike.
  
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Cbashooter
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #7 - Nov 18th, 2022 at 7:05pm
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Bent_Ramrod-
yup we are spoiled now with custom makers that can make custom molds for nearly nothing. Thirty years ago there were only the options you mentioned .To have NEI make a custom mold the cherry cost alone was $275 .
  
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ISS
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #8 - Nov 18th, 2022 at 9:04pm
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What Cbashooter said, plus one!

The times I visited Walt at his houseboat he told me that that cherry fee could be waived, if, IF, he thought the cutter would be used on orders from other customers.  It was mostly a fee to discourage oddball designs.

Rich

Smiley Smiley
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #9 - Nov 19th, 2022 at 1:51am
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Mick B wrote on Nov 18th, 2022 at 6:12pm:
Bent ramrod, thanks for that detailed reply, I figured that such a die might be expensive, but not that expensive at $300 US.
Looks like this idea is getting put on the backburner for a 
later time.
Again thanks for all the replies, much appreciated.
Mike.


I'd just design a custom bullet mould tailored to your rifle's chamber /throat, for the alloy you intend to use - which would essentially do the same without any sizing/reforming required.
  
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Mick B
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #10 - Nov 19th, 2022 at 6:51pm
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When I bought my first 40 cal rifle about 4 yr  ago which was a    CPA  40-65 I also bought a mould with it. As the accuracy results were not as good as I was expecting I then bought another mould to try. Long story short, 12 moulds later I settled on the BACO 400 gr Money Bullet as this gave the best results on the target at 100 m, the BACO 420 gr Money Bullet was second. The rest of the moulds were sold for me by a contact in the US, two of the moulds were for PP bullets which I also tried with little success.
Perhaps I'm just expecting more accuracy than the rifle is capable of when using BP, at the moment my average group size is between 1.25" and 1.5" with the occasional sub 1" on a good day weather wise. As I'm 81 yo and my bench equipment   is basic perhaps this is as good as it's going to get and I should quit while i'm in front.
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Mike.
  
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #11 - Nov 20th, 2022 at 3:20am
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Well, buying moulds and trying them isn't having a mould specifically designed and made for your barrel/ chamber/ throat.  Exact freebore diameter, throat configuration, leade angle...
  
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Mick B
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #12 - Nov 21st, 2022 at 6:29am
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When I first got into the bpcr thing I had come from a background of 60 years of shooting and building flintlock long rifles and knew nothing about BPCR. As a result I had no ideas at all as to how to start and what to buy.
My choice of starting with a 40-65 was because if I decided that  the whole idea didn't work out as planned than I would have little trouble selling the rifle to someone interested in shooting MS, which I even considered doing myself at one stage.
As my club is BP only I ruled out things like the 32-40 which seem to work best with smokeless and not BP. 
I realise now that having a bullet specifically made to suit the rifle I had bought was probably a great idea, at the time I did not have the knowledge to make that decision, so I just tried the multi mould idea which included PP bullets, as well as trying breech seating.
Being a traditionist I wanted to do it exactly as it was done in 1885, not with smokeless powder and any other 21st century innovations. Now I don't want to go to the expense of purchasing a custom made mould that may or may not improve my group size by 1/2" if I'm lucky.  A mould purchased in the US for about $200 ends up costing about A$400 by the time it gets to me, what with freight costs etc, plus the ever changing exchange rate between the two currencies.
I will just have to keep experimenting and hope I get lucky and come up with a consistent load that produces 1" groups on any reasonable day.
Thanks for all the advice, much appreciated.
Mike.
  
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #13 - Nov 21st, 2022 at 10:02am
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Just to add a little fuel to the discussion here, the late Charlie Dell was convinced that lead alloy bullets could not be consistently cast without voids, so he made what he called “swedging” dies that squeezed the cast bullet down a bit in length while bumping them out to perfect diameter for his chamber. As I recall, there was a 3 piece die set with a top punch fit to the bullet nose, a die body precisely reamed to the bullet profile, and a base plug to push from the bottom to swage the bullet.  He would lube the bullet with one of his lube pumps so the grease grooves didn’t collapse.  To operate all of this, he used a standard heavy O loading press like a RCBS Rockchucker I believe.  I believe he passed this stuff on to singleshot (Willis Gregory) when he could no longer make them himself. 
I’m sure some of the rest of the “family” will chime in and correct me on details, but that’s how I remember it.  I’m sorry I can’t give you a source for this tooling, but I don’t think Willis is making them any more. 
Froggie
  
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Re: Bullet swage die question
Reply #14 - Nov 21st, 2022 at 12:17pm
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Mick B wrote on Nov 15th, 2022 at 10:33pm:
I have been thinking of getting a swage die to run mu 40 cal lubricated bullets through to make them more uniform dia wise.
My current bullet of choice is the BACO 400 gr Money Bullet which drops at .408"- 409"my plan was to run them through a swage die to get them to a more uniform dia. My questions are as follows.
Q #1  Is this a worthwhile idea.
Q #2  has anyone tried it, what was the result .
Q #3  was there an improvement in accuracy.
Q #3 Who makes such a die.
Q #4 What is the cost.

Cheers 
Mike.


I have done some recent testing regarding your subject matter. 
NOE makes an excellent sizing die but not sure if he can export them.
  
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