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P08
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Loading for the .38-55
Aug 21st, 2022 at 9:33pm
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I am having issues with loading for this round. I bought a set of Lee dies, I usually buy RCBS, but they were out. So I sized virgin Starline short brass and loaded 37gr of 3031 with a 240gr cast bullet. Bullets are claimed at .375, but actually come out at .380 diameter. HSM bullets by the way. Well I get a bulge on one side of the brass from the bullet which I find odd and they will not chamber without much effort. I found some old SP Hornady 225gr bullets sized a true .375. Of course they fit fine and the dummy round chambered ok. So obviously it's with the bullets? I found a load for the .38-55 in the Hornady manual for a 220gr jacketed SP. Why can't I reduce the load by a grain or two and shoot those?
Also should mention I just picked up a new production Cimarron Deluxe. I would assume the Hi Wall action would be fine for all but the hottest loads? 
TIA
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #1 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 12:33am
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So, when you slugged the barrel what was the actual groove diameter?
  
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P08
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #2 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 9:51am
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I am not to that point yet, I just need to get some rounds down range as for now I am limited to store bought bullets.
  
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GunBum
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #3 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 10:17am
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Slugging the barrel will answer a lot of questions about which store bought bullets to use.
  
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ssdave
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #4 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 10:34am
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Regardless of whether you just need to get some rounds down range, you need to get the right size bullets for your rifle.

Just like you wouldn't put 7mm bullets into a 270 rifle, (even though they're only .007" different) you can't put .380 bullets through a .375 rifle and expect it to work correctly.   

Since the manufacturer doesn't put the bore size on the barrel, just marks it .38-55; you need to check, or verify with the manufacturer if it's a new rifle.  It's as simple as carefully using a caliper in the muzzle to measure between the bottom of opposing grooves, or pushing a soft lead slug through the barrel, and measuring it.   

Then, buy the correct sized bullets for the barrel you have.  If the brass is too tight to accept those bullets, you will have to get a custom expander button for your die set, to expand it a bit more to fit correctly.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #5 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 11:20am
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My Uberti (Cimarron, etc.) 38-55 has a .379 groove diameter (this was the original 38-55 barrel groove diameter and Uberti copied the originals - the fast twist barrels that Pedersoli makes for their Uberti sourced actions may be .375) and I shoot .380 bullets. I could shoot .375 jacketed bullets in it but they would kind of rattle down the barrel with gas escaping around them. I never full length resize my Starline brass (which I also anneal) but just neck size just enough to hold the bullet. Once you are able to fire a few cases with any bullet, you might measure the resulting inside neck diameter of the brass and add a couple of thousandths to give an idea of what bullet might work - but it may take several shots with a case to fully form it to the chamber.
  
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Timetripper
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #6 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 12:34pm
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Are you crimping the bullet?  A bulged case can happen when seating a bullet if the crimp is engaged before the bullet is fully seated. You really don't need to with a single shot rifle if the bullet gets enough case tension to hold it in place.

OTOH a friend has an old Winchester model 94 chambered for 38-55 that had a bore diameter well over .380". It would not shoot well with anything available. When he tried to chamber a case loaded with lead bullets as cast, about .381", it wouldn't chamber. Had the chamber reamed out to accept the larger bullets but he rifle still didn't shoot worth a hoot because the bullets ere too small. I think he now is having the barrel relined. That is not an uncommon issue with old Winchesters.

I can't imagine a new Uberti having that problem. Hope you get it figured out.

John

  
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George Babits
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #7 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 12:37pm
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First of all, 37 grains of 3031 with a 240 grain bullet in the 38-55 is well beyond the maximum load (30.0 grains) recommended in the Lyman cast bullet manual (Fourth Edition).   It is also more than their recommended 3031 charge for the Winchester 375 (31.4 grains) with the same bullet, a higher pressure cartridge.  Even with the 225 grain bullet the maximum recommended charge (Lyman) is only 36.0 grains of 3031.

Now as to the chambering problem.   My Winchester 1894 light weight rifle in 38-55 has a groove diameter or .379 or so.  I lube/size with a .380  lube/sizer die.  My RCBS dies probably size and expand to .375, so these bullets do bulge the case a little bit; enough to where they won't chamber.   So, once the round is loaded, I simply run it back into my file trim die just enough to where it will chamber easilly.  You can do the same thing with a full length sizing die by removing the primer punch.  Well, at least you can with RCBS dies, I don't know how the Lee dies are set up though.   

Regards,
George
  
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #8 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 6:15pm
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Absolutely agree with GB and add the bullet will not withstand the velocities the OP is to get with such powder charges. Keep the speed below 1300fps and you should see success without leading the bore and having good accuracy. A reasonable load would be 9-10 grains of Unique powder. Good luck.
« Last Edit: Aug 22nd, 2022 at 6:20pm by Premod70 »  
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P08
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #9 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 9:19pm
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Ok, bore measured at the muzzle is .3765 in the grooves. Loaded some 225 gr jacketed SP bullets called Hornady just to be sure and no problem. Loaded 5 with 30gr and 5 with 31gr 3031 just to see what the brass fire forms to. Also to see if that works fine see if I can get the 240's to go in properly. If not will need to get a sizer die for the bullets.
As for my first post, I checked and I fat fingered a 3 instead of a 2.
Shooting it tomorrow night and will report back. Thanks for all the input.
  
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craigster
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #10 - Aug 22nd, 2022 at 10:14pm
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This should help:

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

good luck.
  
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Piltdownman
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #11 - Aug 23rd, 2022 at 3:02am
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"you can't put .380 bullets through a .375 rifle and expect it to work correctly,
Just like you wouldn't put 7mm bullets into a 270 rifle, (even though they're only .007" different)"

Actually if throated with a shallow angle it can be quite successful.The "Ardito" 30 BR caliber throat was .314 in back with about a 1 deg leade.This chamber took .314 bullets with a swaged taper to match and still holds some national records in recorded matches.Thats squeezing a gascheck cast bullet down .006.
The Swiss gp90 7.5x53.5 while roughly .298x .307 has  large chamber and leade that shoots best with bullets often .010 oversized to fill the throat.a guy over on Castboolits is breech seating .322  diameter cast bullets in a Martini 7.5  successfully. 
My opinion is fill the throat with as large as a cast bullet that will chamber.i don't slug bores any longer ,I make chamber casts or upset a slug and fit the bullet based on that 
If the chamber won't let you get a bullet big enough to shoot then open up the neck or re chamber with a better dimensions reamer.
  

If I hear another  millenial use the term "node" or "optimal " at the range I'll scream!!!
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ssdave
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #12 - Aug 23rd, 2022 at 1:15pm
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Piltdownman wrote on Aug 23rd, 2022 at 3:02am:
"you can't put .380 bullets through a .375 rifle and expect it to work correctly,
Just like you wouldn't put 7mm bullets into a 270 rifle, (even though they're only .007" different)"

Actually if throated with a shallow angle it can be quite successful.The "Ardito" 30 BR caliber throat was .314 in back with about a 1 deg leade.This chamber took .314 bullets with a swaged taper to match and still holds some national records in recorded matches.Thats squeezing a gascheck cast bullet down .006.
The Swiss gp90 7.5x53.5 while roughly .298x .307 has  large chamber and leade that shoots best with bullets often .010 oversized to fill the throat.a guy over on Castboolits is breech seating .322  diameter cast bullets in a Martini 7.5  successfully. 
My opinion is fill the throat with as large as a cast bullet that will chamber.i don't slug bores any longer ,I make chamber casts or upset a slug and fit the bullet based on that 
If the chamber won't let you get a bullet big enough to shoot then open up the neck or re chamber with a better dimensions reamer.


Apples to fish comparison.  This guy is trying to get factory purchased bullets loaded into his brass using factory dies to use in an unknown bore/chamber rifle because he "needs to get some bullets downrange".  He isn't using a custom rifle with a special designed tapered leade and chamber with specially swaged tapered bullets to match.  He isn't buying a special reamer to change his rifle to match his bullet.

Within the constraints of an unknown rifle bore/chamber and commercial bullets and brass and loading dies, to make the rifle work you have to determine what bore/chamber you have and buy bullets to fit that, and buy an expander that will make your dies fit that bullet.

Or, jump up a couple of sophistication levels, and design and implement a custom cartridge/bullet/chamber reamer/barrel combination as you've described above, fit your brass and custom dies to that combination, and experiment until you make it work. Nothing in the OP's post indicates he has the desire or knowledge to do that.
  
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Piltdownman
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #13 - Aug 23rd, 2022 at 4:53pm
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My response was only  to your bold statement of shooting "oversized bullets"  Not being able to work. I was just clarifying that you were incorrect if it was a general statement.there are circumstances where it works very well. Don't get offended because I don't agree or you don't have any experience doing so.
  

If I hear another  millenial use the term "node" or "optimal " at the range I'll scream!!!
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ssdave
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Re: Loading for the .38-55
Reply #14 - Aug 23rd, 2022 at 7:06pm
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Not offended, and I may or may not have experience doing something similar; that's not applicable to the OP's question.  What I try to do is give information that will work for the person answering the question; that are within the parameters that seem to apply from their question.  We, who have a lot more capability and experience than many that come here asking questions, often give answers that can cause those less experience members throw up their hands and walk away instead of joining in and being the next generation that carries on our single shot rifle traditions.

Not all of us have the experience, time, money and knowledge to design custom cartridges, reamers, and bullet molds to meet particular objectives; nor does everybody want to.  I try to give applicable answers to those that are asking the questions.   

I can make a hell of a lot of things work, including improperly sized bullets.  But, I recommend to someone trying to get a simple cartridge and rifle to work with the objective of "just get some bullets downrange" to determine the correct size for their rifle, as is, and acquire them rather than develop a special chamber and bullet mold and system and get custom components made to implement the special system.
  
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