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Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? (Read 2324 times)

Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1573 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? May 11^th, 2022 at 11:06pm	Print Post
	I picked up a muzzle loading high wall with false muzzle and plunger type starter in 38-55 here in the forum. It is not arrived yet but I'm curious what people are doing for bullet style and size in these set ups? Baseband type ,fully cylindrical, reverse tapered....etc Groove diameter, bore diameter...?


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RSW Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1189 Location: Arizona Joined: Sep 8^th, 2006	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #1 - May 12^th, 2022 at 12:26am	Print Post
	The bullet profile shown below has worked well for me BR at 200 yards. I've shot a number of 10-shot groups both muzzle loaded and breech seated that measured 1 to 1.5 minute of angle as documented in my book The Golden Age of the American Schuetzenfest. The rifle is a .38-50 Rem-Hep, Cody Ballard, heavy Krieger false muzzle barrel. Loads were with: - Old Eynsford - Swiss 1.5 (duplex with IMR4227 priming charge) - Pyrodex - 1960s DuPont FFG (duplex with 4227) - 100+ years old Laflin & Rand FFG (duplex with 4227) One notable lesson learned - muzzle loading is no more accurate than breech seating. Muzzle loading does allow a shooter to shoot dirty once you get the hang of it. Ignore that button on the bullet nose. It was an experiment to see how it affected wind drift. I copied it after the Eley EPS .22LR bullet design. It does not seem to make wind drift any less than a flat nose bullet. I did try muzzle loading with bullets having two rear base bands .001 greater than groove diameter and they were VERY difficult to muzzle load with plunger starter.
	« Last Edit: May 12^th, 2022 at 12:31am by RSW »
	Randy W ASSRA 10211 - ISSA 125 There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11474 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #2 - May 12^th, 2022 at 12:37am	Print Post
	One thing not to do, is make a loading rod that fits the bullet nose like a cup. Make sure you always use a flat tip on your loading rod to push the bullet down. The reason is, bullet lube or some other cause may pull the bullet up away from the chamber when withdrawing the loading rod. If the rifle is fired in that condition it will ring the barrel, and that is the most efficient and quickest way to ruin accuracy. You might get away with a ring at the muzzle but not at the breech. Be very careful and never get in a hurry. Don't ask me how I know. The bullet below is what I'm using in a .39 muzzleloader. .385 at the top and .387 at the base. Barrel groove diameter is .396, bore diameter is .385
	« Last Edit: May 12^th, 2022 at 12:44am by westerner »
	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1573 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #3 - May 12^th, 2022 at 12:54am	Print Post
	Thanks for the info guys!! My rifle should be here Monday and the fun begins. Westerner-thanks for the tip in the loading rod. Randy-I just bought the two books of yours on Amazon I don't plan on.shooting BP in the rifle, will this be adequate with say 4227 to bump up the bore diameter bullet? I shoot a 50 muzzleloader with bore diameter conicals and it works fine , but thats with FFG Goex


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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11474 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #4 - May 12^th, 2022 at 3:23am	Print Post
	Below, 100 yard BR target muzzleloading. 14 gr 4227. Iron sights. I loaded the rifle and Craig did the shooting. Bullet was a tapered Pope style bullet from a Hoch mold cast 30-1. Bullets were .001 over groove diameter. The target was the one and only time Craig shot a rifle with lead bullets. He has a couple Ruger #1s for hunting.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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RSW Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1189 Location: Arizona Joined: Sep 8^th, 2006	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #5 - May 12^th, 2022 at 12:25pm	Print Post
	Cbashooter Looks like Westerner has had good accuracy with straight 4227 loads. IMO, there is no point in muzzle loading with smokeless. It's no more accurate than breech seating. Again, IMO, muzzle loading is only worth the extra steps if you are shooting dirty with straight black or duplex loads. CAUTION - there a real probability of short-starting a bullet after pushing it down with plunger then not pushing it all the way down the barrel with loading rod. That can ring the barrel when fired. Back in the Schuetzen era, a lot of muzzle loading .33-47 rifles started out as .32-40s and had to be re-rifled due to the barrel having been ringed by a short-started bullet.

	Randy W ASSRA 10211 - ISSA 125 There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11474 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #6 - May 13^th, 2022 at 2:20pm	Print Post
	RSW wrote on May 12^th, 2022 at 12:25pm: Cbashooter Looks like Westerner has had good accuracy with straight 4227 loads. IMO, there is no point in muzzle loading with smokeless. It's no more accurate than breech seating. Again, IMO, muzzle loading is only worth the extra steps if you are shooting dirty with straight black or duplex loads. CAUTION - there a real probability of short-starting a bullet after pushing it down with plunger then not pushing it all the way down the barrel with loading rod. That can ring the barrel when fired. Back in the Schuetzen era, a lot of muzzle loading .33-47 rifles started out as .32-40s and had to be re-rifled due to the barrel having been ringed by a short-started bullet. I agree with that. Craigs target was the only time the rifle was muzzleloaded with smokeless. Most of the time it see's BP. Few years ago at Butte I failed to push the bullet down to the breech. Rifle was .33. The ring was so bad I couldn't get a tight patch past the ring. Had it rebored to .38. I'll add, the 38-55 is a pleasure to muzzleload compared to the 32-40 using BP.
	« Last Edit: May 13^th, 2022 at 2:29pm by westerner »
	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1573 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #7 - May 13^th, 2022 at 4:49pm	Print Post
	I just got into my powder stash and found I had 25 pounds of goex 2F. And I've got a decent amount of 4227 so it looks like I'll give it a try.


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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11474 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #8 - May 13^th, 2022 at 9:54pm	Print Post
	The most accurate load in my 38-55 is 3.5gr R7, the balance FF GOEX with a cork wad seated flush with the mouth of the case. No compression other than thumb pressure to seat the wad. 280 grain tapered bullet just under groove diameter. No wiping between shots. My rifle is .375 groove diameter, 19 twist.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1573 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #9 - May 13^th, 2022 at 11:09pm	Print Post
	Thanks. I have the 375272 stepped Hudson Bullet as well as the 375166 and a couple tapered SAECO designs.rifle not here so no sure of twist or dimensions.


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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11474 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #10 - May 14^th, 2022 at 6:53pm	Print Post
	Nice looking outfit. Be sure to keep us up to date on your load results. Always interesting reading for me. I truly wished there was a breech muzzleloader match somewhere. Open relay type so that a shooter can take his time and do some fine shooting.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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Dusty Rhodes Full Member Offline Posts: 175 Joined: Apr 28^th, 2016	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #11 - May 15^th, 2022 at 2:04am	Print Post
	RSW wrote on May 12^th, 2022 at 12:26am: The bullet profile shown below has worked well for me BR at 200 yards. I've shot a number of 10-shot groups both muzzle loaded and breech seated that measured 1 to 1.5 minute of angle as documented in my book The Golden Age of the American Schuetzenfest. The rifle is a .38-50 Rem-Hep, Cody Ballard, heavy Krieger false muzzle barrel. Loads were with: - Old Eynsford - Swiss 1.5 (duplex with IMR4227 priming charge) - Pyrodex - 1960s DuPont FFG (duplex with 4227) - 100+ years old Laflin & Rand FFG (duplex with 4227) One notable lesson learned - muzzle loading is no more accurate than breech seating. Muzzle loading does allow a shooter to shoot dirty once you get the hang of it. Ignore that button on the bullet nose. It was an experiment to see how it affected wind drift. I copied it after the Eley EPS .22LR bullet design. It does not seem to make wind drift any less than a flat nose bullet. I did try muzzle loading with bullets having two rear base bands .001 greater than groove diameter and they were VERY difficult to muzzle load with plunger starter. Hi Randy, When you M/L your bullet, how do you guage the final position of the bullet. Do you use a stopper on your loading rod or a Dummy round in the Chamber with a spacer to sit the bullet on. What alloy do you use. ? Thanks.


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RSW Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1189 Location: Arizona Joined: Sep 8^th, 2006	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #12 - May 15^th, 2022 at 11:58am	Print Post
	Dusty Rhodes For starters, I do not advocate muzzle loading cartridge rifles. It's too easy to make a mistake and only start the bullet into the barrel, then forget to ram it home. It happens. If it's a nice Pope, Schoyed, etc. barrel, you have just ruined a piece of history. If it's a modern barrel and you ring the barrel, it's only your problem. That being said; in my testing I used a rod with brass muzzle guide of the sort used for cleaning percussion/flint muzzle loaders. The illustration below pretty much covers the details. Note: the illustration also shows clearly why there is a 1/16" (approximate) distance between bullet base and case mouth. That bullet had been muzzle loaded into a barrel during a string of shots. It was pushed all the way through and out breech to show how much fouling was left in bore after each shot.

	Randy W ASSRA 10211 - ISSA 125 There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1573 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #13 - May 15^th, 2022 at 12:53pm	Print Post
	RSW - I've only short started a muzzleloader once and didn't damage the barrel. but I'm getting apprehensive about possibility of my ruining an AW Peterson barrel. I'm now leaning towards putting the false muzzle and starter aside and just breech seating.


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RSW Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1189 Location: Arizona Joined: Sep 8^th, 2006	Re: Muzzleloading 38-55 bullet style/diameter? Reply #14 - May 15^th, 2022 at 2:31pm	Print Post
	Cbashooter Good plan, IMO. Wipe between shots and breech seat. Your accuracy will be just a good as ML but with no danger of ruining an irreplaceable antique. It is possible to shoot dirty and breech seat but that's another story . . . In a book that should be delivered to you in a coupl'a days, I explain and depict how that's done

	Randy W ASSRA 10211 - ISSA 125 There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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