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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 25-20WCF (Read 4526 times)
SSShooter
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25-20WCF
Aug 11th, 2021 at 11:41am
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How are you belling the mouth on your cases? 
Am trying a few different GC bullets and they are catching the mouth and folding over. After the second one I've stopped trying to load them as don't want to lose any more of these somewhat rare cases (original Winchester). 
Thanks.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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50target
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #1 - Aug 11th, 2021 at 12:18pm
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I shoot the 25-20 in several types of actions and use a little different technique for my SS's. If you can find a Lyman M die it is a little easier.
Basically when I bell the case mouth I want enough that I can get the bullet base well into the case mouth that the case can hold it without tilting in any direction.
Guide the round into seating die, seat and crimp separate operation if I am using a crimp.
Those case moths arethin and need special attention since they aren't going to take any mishandling as you know.

Hope that helps.

Bob
  
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SSShooter
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #2 - Aug 11th, 2021 at 2:30pm
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Found the Lyman M die. Looks like it will work for this. Should have shortly.
Thx.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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uscra112
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #3 - Aug 11th, 2021 at 4:58pm
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If it's not too late, look into these expanders that NOE makes, for use in the $20 Lee "Universal Expander" (which it's not) die body.

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oneatatime
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #4 - Aug 11th, 2021 at 6:43pm
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The Lyman M die puts a minute step in the neck that the bullet sits squarely on for seating. Greatest thing since sliced bread.
  
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #5 - Aug 11th, 2021 at 7:47pm
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Glenn 

CH 4D short die body has the same internal thread as the male neck size die and M Die plug. Put the body in your  press. Neck size, remove the sizing ring & top ring lock plug, screw the M plug in. It’s the M that sets final neck diameter and flare.

Minimum working the brass rarely lose a case. All you need to finish is the seating die. If you want my sizer & M plugs diameters & bullet sizes for 25/20 WCF can post, they are probably close to correct for your rifle. M diamaters can be trial and error. Another caution M die bodies come in various lengths generally short cases need short body. 38/55 based need Medium.  

To be clear how it works, neck sizer over sizes just a bit, not nearly as much as a factory full length. M plug opens the neck up to correct for YOUR bullet then flares the cases mouth with very little brass working.

Rule of thumb cast bullet with a small bullet wants about .002 neck pull. Jacketed bit more. This general, some prefer more or less. Cartridges working  through Lever actions and spring magazines need more pull than Single shots. Less than case full of smokeless powder needs more pull than case full of black when the bullet sits on powder and a wad. More pull can give better combustion.

My opinion best solution any cast bullet fixed loading. I use the method 25/20 WCF 38/40 WCF 30/30 32/40 & 38/55  two die bodies 5 sizing rings 5 M plugs to load 5 cartridges.

Make sense ?

Boats
« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2021 at 7:53pm by boats »  
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SSShooter
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #6 - Aug 11th, 2021 at 8:38pm
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Boats - I think so. Once I have the M die in hand I'll see.
Thx.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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50target
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #7 - Aug 11th, 2021 at 10:34pm
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Be careful in setting up the M die. I unscrew. The expander plug and adjust the die body. Place case in and run into die body. Reinstall expander and run it down until you make contact. Let case down and screw expander in and continue until you get the correct bell. Run case in and lock down the expander. when you get the bell you want. Go easy on the adjustments.
Use that case as your max length or you get too much of a good thing on a case longer than one used to set the bell.
You're good to go.
Good luck and hopefully your loss rate goes to zero.
The 25-20 is a great cartridge.

Bob
  
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uscra112
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #8 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 2:14am
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50target wrote on Aug 11th, 2021 at 10:34pm:

The 25-20 is a great cartridge.

Bob


It certainly is that.  One of the top 5 cast bullet rifle cartridges known to man.   A shame it doesn't get more support from the brass mfgrs.

A point about using the M-die.  If you're getting a flare at the case mouth, you're going too far.  The second diameter of the plug gives you all the diameter you need to start the bullet without scraping.  Flaring and ironing out the flare on seating will only reduce the life of that precious brass by overworking it.   
  

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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #9 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 7:03am
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Have to answer in couple of messages due picture size.

Most call expanders “m” dies, think M is Lyman’s name for expander dies, CH 4D calls them expander dies. They are quite different.

CH dies are on the left. Expander is a ball, after it expands its clear of the case neck until the neck flare section comes into play. Expanders on the right are Lyman’s. Long expand surface and sharp flare step.



  
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #10 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 7:04am
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When flare is applied uniform case length is essential . I use a Redding tool



  
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #11 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 7:07am
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New cases Sequence is neck size to uniform mouth, trim, then de-bur, this is a CH tool run on a power screwdriver.  Last step is flare 

Boats
  
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #12 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 7:11am
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Back to neck sizing, my press is set up for 25/20 running a lot of 300 loads. Two die bodies in the press,  one is the Size/expand body other bullet seater. Later will switch the shell holder & seater to 38/40 & change the bushing/expander plugs, use the same die body.
  
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #13 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 7:16am
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Here are the die body’s internal parts.  Bushing plug has its primer knock out mounted, use it sometimes mostly de prime separately.  Note two bushings one is a spacer on top of the correct bushing due 25/20 case length.

Expander plug shown too.

  
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Re: 25-20WCF
Reply #14 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 7:34am
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Last here are my dimensions 

Bullet plain base 86 gr .260. 

Neck sizer .273

Expander ball .257

In practice with tolerance stacking it’s difficult to simply order the correct sizes. It’s best to minimize brass working however you can over size the neck and hit the exact size with the expander plug. 

My loads are for a original 1894 Marlin used in Silhouette were absolute accuracy is not required. Good feed through the tubular magazine and reliability essential . With scare expensive brass don’t want to over work cases. Bullet pull is .003.

My 32/40 and 38/55 loads for CPA single shots use .001 bullet pull. Cases used in those two barrels are a lot of 500 WW bought when the rifle was delivered in 1993. Lost count of # of loads years ago case loss almost zero.

Breech seating is much easier than fixed but not suitable for timed matches. However using proper neck sizers and expander plugs it’s not all that difficult to get good fixed ammunition 

Boats  

  
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