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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2 (Read 6376 times)
Schuetzendave
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #15 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 12:32am
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Third hand I was told the CPAs were 1/4" thicker.
NO they are only 1/8" thicker.

This is what CPA Rifles says:

"The frame is slightly thicker than the original, being about 1 1/4" thick rather than the Stevens 44 1/2 action's 1 1/8. This has allowed the use of somewhat larger barrel shank threads. These are 15/16-16, the same as the Winchester high wall, and larger cartridges can be used, up to the ability to load a case past the hammer. Some but not all parts are interchangeable with original Stevens Model 44 1/2 actions. Please contact us if you would like more specifics."

But our discussion has progressed past the question of the "Pressures" and "Calibers" for the ORIGINAL Stevens 44 1/2.

I understand the Original Stevens 44 1/2 was an upgrade in strength since the Stevens 44 could not handle the new  smokeless powders specifically in the .32-20. 
Does anyone have a list of the calibers that the Original Stevens 44 1/2 was chambered in?

The question is about a restored Original Stevens 44 1/2 and not the stronger CPA replica designed with a wider barrel shank.
« Last Edit: Jul 13th, 2021 at 1:11am by Schuetzendave »  
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Dellet
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #16 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 1:03am
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I had an interesting email conversation with the Shuttleworth’s some years ago about the strength of their action. I wanted to do full power loads with basically a “modernized” rimmed Mauser cartridge. 444 Marlin necked down to 6.5 mm and 145 grain bullets with a 40 degree shoulder.

The consensus was no problem, we were discussing pressures in the range of 55-60,000. 

At that time they had never proofed one of their rifles and sounded like they had no intention to ever do so. Kind of a, the more you know, the more liability you might have type of statement.

I was told that a fair number of their rifles had been proof tested by customers over the years. Some with some very scary tales of double charges or wrong powder used. I think some of the calculated pressures were in the 90,000+psi range. No loss of an action or limb. It was an interesting exchange.

There was a certain amount confidence in their product, combined with a “let us know how that works out for you” message in the conversation that left me feeling like I might be pushing the limits. The project is in that someday I’ll do it list. 

Consider that the Miroku high walls are chambered in more than a couple magnum rounds and I think it’s safe to say the action designs are strong. 

The question on old iron is integrity, corrosion and fatigue. I shoot enough old iron to know that most failures, can’t be predicted. One day you just find a crack, if you’re lucky. If you’re not lucky the crack finds you. 

Sorry, no hard numbers, but hope it inspires some thought.
  
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S99VG
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #17 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 1:20am
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So to fill the data gap in my post I would like to determine what the best cartridge would be for long range shooting.  The 38-55 has always held a fascination with me but I may want to stick my neck out there and try for ranges up to 1,000-yards.  And that's something I don't think the 38-55 would be up for doing.  So the Winchester 375 came to mind.  However it is effectively a shortened 38-55 that was deisgned to operate at higher pressures.  So, in celebration of the the barrel options the 44 1/2 has to offer, let me rephrase my question.  What would be the best long range cartridge for an original 44 1/2 - assuming that increased range would equate increased pressure.
  
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Sure shot
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #18 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 8:38am
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I would buy a modern rifle if I wanted a .375 Winchester. I would stick to traditional calibers in my 44 1/2, .38-55, .32.40, 25-35, 30-30, and maybe.219 zipper would be my choices.
I know that some 44 1/2’s were built in 30-40, and .25 krag, and .225 Winchester, but I think those calibers are pushing it a bit.
  
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S99VG
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #19 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 9:39am
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Sure shot wrote on Jul 13th, 2021 at 8:38am:
I would buy a modern rifle if I wanted a .375 Winchester. I would stick to traditional calibers in my 44 1/2, .38-55, .32.40, 25-35, 30-30, and maybe.219 zipper would be my choices.
I know that some 44 1/2’s were built in 30-40, and .25 krag, and .225 Winchester, but I think those calibers are pushing it a bit.


Yeah, that’s probably the sound thinking on the subject.  My Stevens came to me chambered in 17 Ackley Hornet and the next barrel will either be 32-40 or a 303 Savage.  The latter because I’ve been a long time fan of that cartridge and I have dies and brass.  I even have a Savage 99 chambered for it, but nothing in 30-30.  And it looks like any long range plans would have to stick to the 38-55, or something bigger in a CPA.  Thanks much for letting me talk this out!
  
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Dellet
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #20 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 9:41am
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S99VG wrote on Jul 13th, 2021 at 1:20am:
So to fill the data gap in my post I would like to determine what the best cartridge would be for long range shooting.  The 38-55 has always held a fascination with me but I may want to stick my neck out there and try for ranges up to 1,000-yards.  And that's something I don't think the 38-55 would be up for doing.  So the Winchester 375 came to mind.  However it is effectively a shortened 38-55 that was deisgned to operate at higher pressures.  So, in celebration of the the barrel options the 44 1/2 has to offer, let me rephrase my question.  What would be the best long range cartridge for an original 44 1/2 - assuming that increased range would equate increased pressure.

If this is just for playing around, it might make sense, if it is to compete, it’s probably wasted effort. It would depend on the rules of the competition. 

To take advantage of higher pressure, you would be shooting gas checks, coated, jacketed or copper solids. When you get to the heavier bullets generally used for long distance, the velocity gap narrows quickly between the two cartridges.

There is a point where the action is stronger than the speed you can push a plain lead bullet, if that’s the goal.
  
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #21 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 10:06am
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A CPA action will handle .45- and .50-70 caliber head sizes, while an original is best suited to .30-30 head sizes.  The company offered the .38-40, IIRC, but this was a pistol-size powder charge.  You might be able to use the .30-40 head size in a chambering like the .38-50 Remington, a case which actually holds more black powder than a .38-55, and, with a quick twist for long bullets, will shoot to surprising distances if the wind isn’t too bad.  Hot-ridding this with smokeless would be a poor idea.

There’s simply not a lot of margin in an original 44-1/2 for large-diameter, high-intensity cartridges.  The barrel shank is, as mentioned, thinner than the usual ~1” or so in other single shots.  At high pressures, primers tend to flow into the necessarily oval firing pin hole, and the camming action of the block to seat a sticky shell is much better than the extractor leverage getting one back out.  Just because a frame and block might handle an overload without coming apart doesn’t mean no issues with the rest of the design.
  
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #22 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 10:16am
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I have a 25 Krag barrel by CPA I bought here a year or so ago that I'm not gonna do anything with. if you are interested pm me.
It comes with dies, brass and form dies as well as an unfinished forum.
It's a 28" round barrel IIRC.
barrel is a 1 in 10 Douglas.

I had plans for this barrel but since bought a complete gun with 3 barrels.
  
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #23 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 10:41am
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Bent_Ramrod wrote on Jul 13th, 2021 at 10:06am:
A CPA action will handle .45- and .50-70 caliber head sizes, while an original is best suited to .30-30 head sizes.  The company offered the .38-40, IIRC, but this was a pistol-size powder charge.  You might be able to use the .30-40 head size in a chambering like the .38-50 Remington, a case which actually holds more black powder than a .38-55, and, with a quick twist for long bullets, will shoot to surprising distances if the wind isn’t too bad.  Hot-ridding this with smokeless would be a poor idea.

There’s simply not a lot of margin in an original 44-1/2 for large-diameter, high-intensity cartridges.  The barrel shank is, as mentioned, thinner than the usual ~1” or so in other single shots.  At high pressures, primers tend to flow into the necessarily oval firing pin hole, and the camming action of the block to seat a sticky shell is much better than the extractor leverage getting one back out.  Just because a frame and block might handle an overload without coming apart doesn’t mean no issues with the rest of the design.


I think you had mentioned the 38-50 Remington to me in a previous post.  I went looking for info on this round on the web and couldn't find too much.  What more can you tell me about the round?  Thanks
  
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #24 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 2:39pm
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I would think that about as far out as a black powder target rifle (BPCR Silhouette) that you could reasonably get with the 44 1/2 is a fast twist 38-55 like Pedersoli makes for the HighWall. This would get you to 500 meters. Probably should use the original longer length brass for just a little extra powder room. The 38-50 Remington Hepburn would be quite similar with the added effort of forming brass from 30-40 Krag. I shoot a 38-50 CPA in BPCR and keep my 38-55 Highwall for 200 yards.
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #25 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 3:38pm
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Harvey Trace specifications for a .38-50 Remington Hepburn reamer to use either blown out .30-40 Krag cases or .303 British cases.

I have only used 50 grains Swiss FFFg with a 310 grain bullet in mine (18:1 twist) and it does knock down the Rams (slowly) at 550 yards but that is about it's maximum range. 
You can shoot a 360 grain bullet if you have a 14:1 twist.

May do better with smokeless but larger calibers with heavier bullets do better for long range (1,000 yard) shooting due to the kinetic energy from heavier bullet mass (540 grains) and being more resilient to wind drift exposure over long distances.

But the original Stevens 44 1/2 was not designed for these larger calibers.

That is why CPA made their replicas wider to accept a wider barrel shank so they could chamber these larger calibers.
« Last Edit: Jul 13th, 2021 at 4:29pm by Schuetzendave »  
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George Babits
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #26 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 5:00pm
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George Nonte in "Modern Hand Loading," 1972, groups the 44 1/2 Stevens right up there with the  High Wall, Sharps Borchardt, and Remington Hepburn.

Frank de Haas,  "Single Shot Rifles and Actions,"  1969,  says, "with a properly altered firing pin, will safely handle many cartridges that develope up to 50,000pounds per square inch."  He goes on to state that the limiting factor, as mentioned already, is the diameter of the barrel shank.  He does limit it to the 30-30 base cases.

George
  
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #27 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 6:43pm
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Ken Waters has a section in his Wildcat Cartridges Volume 1 on the 25 Krag.  In it he states "Ned (Ned Roberts) maintained that, following the installation of the Mann-Nieder firing pin, Stevens No. 44 1/2 actions were capable of safely handling pressures of 45,000 to 50,000 psi." When I had Gail rebuild my Stevens 44 1/2 several years I asked about going to a 30-40 Krag.  As I recall, Gail told me no problem unless the case was too long to let the rim clear the hammer while loading.  I ended up going with a 25-35 wcf and never looked back.  I believe they have a reamer for a 40 Short Krag that I think is somewhat less than 2.00" which with the proper twist might work for longer ranges than a 38-55 but not sure.  Tom
  
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Re: What are the Pressure Limits of the 44 1/2
Reply #28 - Jul 13th, 2021 at 7:59pm
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The hammer on an original 441/2 can be replaced with the speed hammer from CPA. It having a much lower hammer spur that is also a big benefit for being able to use a mechanical breech seater that will now very easily clear the hammer spur.
  

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