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wesg
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Ruger Thread Alignment
May 6th, 2021 at 6:28pm
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Just for fun:

Looking for something else, stumbled upon this. Might have posted it some years back.

No3 in .223. Some checking of geometry before reworking it. This is not an illusion. I think it calculated out to about 3/4° off square. But the action face and breech block were about as close to perfect as could be expected.

  
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JLouis
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #1 - May 6th, 2021 at 7:22pm
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What is off square I don't even see a shoulder on the barrel stub to make direct contact to the face of the action. What is it that I might be missing?
  

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Cbashooter
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #2 - May 6th, 2021 at 10:05pm
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I had a number one at the hangar bar was not perpendicular with the action and we went to a heavier barrel we had to relieve a little bit  up front. It was actually quite crooked compared to the other one we were doing at the time.

Richard Stripes who used to shoot in Spokane Washington would cut the hangar bar off so he could put a heavier barrel and then reattached to the barrel afterwards. he claimed he got much better accuracy that way.
  
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rkba2nd
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #3 - May 7th, 2021 at 12:45am
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I find it hard to imagine that hanging anything on the barrel is conducive to good or better accuracy. Benchrest shooters go to extremes to avoid just that. Ruger engineers designed the hangar to allow the barrel to be free of attachments and to house other components, which raised other concerns. But if Mr. Stripes had good performance with his approach, more power to him, but it would not be my approach.
  

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Cbashooter
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #4 - May 7th, 2021 at 12:51am
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rkba2nd wrote on May 7th, 2021 at 12:45am:
I find it hard to imagine that hanging anything on the barrel is conducive to good or better accuracy. Benchrest shooters go to extremes to avoid just that. Ruger engineers designed the hangar to allow the barrel to be free of attachments and to house other components, which raised other concerns. But if Mr. Stripes had good performance with his approach, more power to him, but it would not be my approach.

With that setup he held a couple national records at one  point so I would say it worked. 
« Last Edit: May 7th, 2021 at 1:26am by Cbashooter »  
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marlinguy
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but they sure are neater!

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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #5 - May 7th, 2021 at 10:40am
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JLouis wrote on May 6th, 2021 at 7:22pm:
What is off square I don't even see a shoulder on the barrel stub to make direct contact to the face of the action. What is it that I might be missing?


It appears the barrel might be square to the action face, but both slant downward slightly also.
  

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KFW
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #6 - May 7th, 2021 at 12:02pm
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Even in the era of precision CNC machining, it takes a human to clean the fixtures of built up chips, dried coolant crud etc. Had a Ruger 3 yrs back with barrel way off from axial of the frame. To their credit they did fix it promptly.
kw
  
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wesg
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #7 - May 7th, 2021 at 12:18pm
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What you're missing is what I left out. The threaded piece is a snug fit in the threads, all machined in one setup. The threads were lightly lapped in to get it full depth.

The action face is lined up with the edge of the paper, so the top edge is eyeball square to it.

If the arbor had a shoulder, it wouldn't make contact with the face. The original barrel had evidence of plastic deformation where it had made first contact and been torqued in. Which left it out of square to the breech block, which made the cartridge base out of square, and so on ...

The thread was milled straight, and the action face reshaped a bit. Needs finish work, and a stock.
« Last Edit: May 7th, 2021 at 12:27pm by wesg »  
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JLouis
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #8 - May 7th, 2021 at 1:56pm
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Thank you for the further explanation. What some folks tend not to check or tend to correct is the face of the action itself.
  

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rkba2nd
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #9 - May 7th, 2021 at 4:04pm
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Cbashooter.  As I said, more power to him. I didn't say that it wouldn't or couldn't work, only that it went against what benchrest shooters found in  their quest for accuracy. After seeing his work, I for sure would not use his approach, as I neither have the equipment available to him, or the ability to use it. It is also possible that a very accurate, very heavy barrel played a role in his success, along with the ability to take advantage of all of the    above. The best equipment is only as good as the user, just as the most accurate rifle is only as good as the shooter using it. Mr. Stripes obviously has command of both. He also had to address other inherent problems with the Ruger action. The long travel arc of the hammer(read, lock time)and the disruptive force of it's action, and the need to improve or replace the trigger with one that is adjustable for very light pull weight. I would be interested to know of his solutions for these problems.
  

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JLouis
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #10 - May 7th, 2021 at 4:51pm
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Merril Martin wrote an article about how he went about getting his Ruger #1 to shoot. Then he did exactly the same to a friend's and then took them to a Coors match and did very well. And to top it off he was used fixed and what also made it very impressing. I used the same exact approach with a #3 with a Shilen barrel and new wood on it and it shoot extremely well breech seated. Once I got it shooting I sold it to a new shooter with everything included minus a scope and ready to use. I also took him out to the range to be able to shoot it first with enough cast and lubed bullets for him to continue to get out with until he learned to cast enough for himself. When I purchased this rifle and at a fair price the intent was to provide one for a new shooter that was already to get out and use. And I also passed it onto him at a very reasonable price as well. He also brought his scope a Leoupod Target and I mounted it for him at the range and then got it sighted in for him. He came out to our next match and several after and that was my plan from the very start. It was already developed to the point of it being competitive and the rest of it was now all up to him.
  

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Cbashooter
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #11 - May 7th, 2021 at 5:18pm
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Dick Stripes passed on  a few years ago.
Last I shot with him was maybe 10 years ago and he was playing with some strange 25 calibre wildcat on a #1.
  
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #12 - May 7th, 2021 at 5:55pm
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Wes,
Nice looking work, share a little more?  I have a couple of #1's I've cleaned up and put together, a couple more to do someday, they've kind of fallen off my radar but they're on the list.  When I get a little time I have another project I'm elbow deep in and will start another post...
Did you keep this as a .223 or change it up?  you thread milled the threads? pick up the lead and go? - done that a couple times with my mill but call me lazy - the lathe fixtures I've made have become my easy button.  Did you go to about 1.032 diameter or did it even take that much? What barrel did you go with? what's the wood looking like?  The hanger looks like something you came up with?
Thanks for sharing. 
Greg
  

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wesg
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #13 - May 7th, 2021 at 6:32pm
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Hey Greg,

Yes, thread milled. Being out of square by so much it was a matter of knicking one side and the other to center it up, and then keep going until it cleaned up. I'm not sure anymore on dimensions, but I think maybe I was getting so close to a 1-1/16-16 that I just kept going to make it a 'standard' thread. I had some barrel stubs from bolt guns, and a M-70 that I trued started at 1-16. Those were my 'gauges'.

It took a lot. More than theory would suggest.

The next issue was the tulip breech. The receiver isn't all that great in terms of contour, so there was going to be a variance in the 'reveal' where it sits. So I cleaned up the angled areas with an engraving tool, which leads to that running out into a wavering line with the main receiver contour. So that had to be reworked as well.

I didn't have 3d programming available at the time, so I had to draw all the cutter paths in CAM so the basic 'follow line' command would work. Lots of offsetting and rotating.

So with the oversize thread, and thinning the receiver out, I might be concerned if this were a 308 or bigger cartridge. It's based on a .357 Max. Which is basically the same case as a .223.
  
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wesg
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Re: Ruger Thread Alignment
Reply #14 - May 7th, 2021 at 7:02pm
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Since I was a kid I loved the shape of the 218 Bee. Had one in my collection box. I have a No1 in 218 now. But I thought it would be cool to scale it up to a 6mm. Turns out, the base diameter of the case is almost exactly what a 357 is. But a 357 mag is too short. The Max is way too long, but that can be fixed.

So I had a reamer ground and made my own dies. I had some trouble with case concentricity in prototyping. I started with putting the body taper on in the first stage. And that leaves no support when you do the next 2 necking operations. So I split the body taper up over the 3 stages. By working them progressively, yielding the entire thing on each form, they come out dead true.

The one on the right is lathe turned from brass for a model. I reduced the body taper slightly from the Bee, and steepened the shoulder just a touch as well. I wanted it to look like an old cartridge, not a radical Ackley type shape.

The dies were bored in the CNC mill. I still need to make a couple more sizing dies, with different neck diameters, and a seater. I also need to try annealing again. They won't chamber after FL sizing, they spring back too much. I got one of the motorized annealers, but I had swirl head torches that were impossible to concentrate at the neck and shoulder without toasting the entire case. But abusively over annealing a couple lead to perfect chambering with the die I have.

The barrel is a Krieger 1-12 CM. It's a small cartridge, and I have no intention of shooting anything over 85gr anyway. The contour is interesting ... maybe. It's a 1/3 Oct, 1/2 Rd, 1/6 Oct. Or thereabouts.

The Oct at the breech, and the round section are tapered. Then there's a steeper taper back up at the muzzle into a straight Oct where a front sight base would mount. I figured if I decide I don't like the look of it it can go back in the lathe and be fixed pretty easily. But it's grown on me.

The buttstock is the original No3, and the forearm was glued up from some 3/4" walnut I had. Mainly to work out the machining for the inletting. It's a square block with rounded corners at this point. Just something to sit on a rest so I can shoot it. Which just hasn't happened.

When I get my move and shop stuff sorted out, maybe I'll get back to it along with a bunch of other projects that are gathering dust. But I think all it needs to fire it is a proper annealing setup and a couple dies.
  
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