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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) No.2 Ballard actions (Read 7799 times)
SnuffySmith
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #15 - Mar 30th, 2021 at 12:07am
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Thanks for information. I am going to go ahead, cautiously, and build up some light loads to shoot. Thanks all.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #16 - Mar 30th, 2021 at 10:32am
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Sniffy, I think mild BP loads would be fine in your .44-40 #2 Ballard. The cartridge was dropped long before smokeless powder arrived, so it wasn't smokeless loads that  made Marlin's decision to drop this cartridge. All Ballard rifles ended before smokeless powder was the new fad in US ammunition.
I fired mine in .44-40 and .44 Long also, and never any issue with light loads.

Chauncey, Ballard cast actions do crack, and when they do it's at the internal 90 degree corner where the vertical face of the action transitions to the wrist just below the chamber end of the barrel. 
Surprisingly the Ballard breech block is often cited as a weak point because it's split, and has the smaller block area directly behind the chamber. But I've never seen a Ballard breech block that failed, except when someone overloaded the ammo enough to do a lot of other damage too.
  

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JLouis
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #17 - Mar 30th, 2021 at 10:50am
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Not really relevant but maybe still a bit interesting in regards to the first mass produced using smokeless powder and just something that I was also a bit curious about. 

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marlinguy
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #18 - Mar 30th, 2021 at 12:39pm
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Yes, smokeless was around at the end of Ballard production, but nowhere in sight when Marlin dropped the bigger cartridges from the #2 lineup.
  

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KWK
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #19 - Mar 30th, 2021 at 4:24pm
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oneatatime wrote on Mar 29th, 2021 at 11:59pm:
I thought the problem was just that with enough firing, the action loosened up.


A few Ballards I've handled (mostly Civil War jobs) were quite loose. I've read this is simply wear in the link which ties the breech to the lever. Ballards usually wedge the top of the breech into place, plus the link and its two pins take some of the breech thrust. With the older steels, wear is the result in the link joints. Replacing the link and pins will fix that flop.

As I recall, Dutcher wrote all Marlin Ballards use the forged breech, so the weak spot will be the two back corners of its mortise in the cast receiver. They didn't understand then that radiusing this corner would improve the fatigue life quite a bit. Ruger casts such a radius into the receiver of their No.1 single.

I've read some Civil War reenactors who chamber the Civil War carbines in 44 Mag loaded with BP have managed to crack their receivers. I think the thinner WCF brass won't load breech as much.

I saw some proper lab pressure data for BP in the 44 WCF. I'll see if I can find it for you.
  

Karl
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ballardhepburnmich
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #20 - Mar 30th, 2021 at 10:49pm
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I have a pre Marlin Ballard in. 44 ex.long. I black powder equivalent smokeless loads all the time, just as tight as when I got it about 20 years ago. 
Lee Gibbs pres.ASSRA
  
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marlinguy
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #21 - Mar 31st, 2021 at 10:37am
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In my experience with droopy levers, or slightly loose Ballard actions, the vast majority were tightened up just replacing the lever screw, and the two link screws. I've almost never had one so loose that it needed a link. I believe the links are harder than the screws intentionally, so that if it wore the screws would be much easier to produce, and not be as critical in length as the link is!
Links come in all sorts of minute sizes when comparing them hole to hole length. I think that workers in the Marlin factory likely had bins of assorted length links sitting in front of them, and as they assembled Ballard rifles they simply tried a link and if the lockup didn't have the proper crush, or didn't center on a primer, they swapped another link from a bin to adjust it.
In taking a bunch of my actions apart one day, I compared links using new new screws to align the holes, and found a pretty good variety among about 20 Ballard rifles I checked. I'd guess there was a half dozen or so different lengths as far as I could tell. Some had slight wear, so I didn't hold much regard to them in comparison. But those that showed no wear still showed enough difference to indicate a number of different lengths were used.
I've often wondered if those late Ballard actions assembled in Cody were adjusted with varying length links also?
  

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art_ruggiero
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #22 - Mar 31st, 2021 at 12:52pm
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remember bullet weight has a lot to do with pressure and breech thrust   keep bullets lite   art
  
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KWK
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #23 - Mar 31st, 2021 at 2:33pm
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I did record Dutcher's comments on the 44's used in the early Ballards, which had both cast frames and breeches. The regular had 28 gr under 210 gr, the Long 33 under 250, and the Extra Long 46 under 216. He also records a 46 RF as 57 under 305. Missing from this is powder granulation and compression, so we can only guess as to relative pressures. The 44 WCF was nominally 40 under 200, but it's said that varied.

I haven't seen any estimates of the number of old Ballards which cracked their frames firing factory RF loads, if any. The ones we find today will be ones that didn't. Clearly, though, the early Ballards were taking some healthy loads. Whether Marlin's frame castings were as good (or better), I have no idea.
  

Karl
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ballardhepburnmich
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #24 - Mar 31st, 2021 at 10:00pm
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I think that you will find that the Ballard cast actions are a lot stronger than a lot of people think, I think that as long as loads are kept to black powder pressures and pressure curves they are fine. Similar pressure curves are very important as a total pressure reading doesn't tell the whole story, you need to know that the pressures are similar as the bullet travels up the barrel. 
Lee Gibbs pres.ASSRA
  
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marlinguy
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #25 - Apr 1st, 2021 at 10:56am
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I've owned cast Ballard rifles chambered in calibers I wouldn't consider making up myself. But I never felt concerned about shooting them, and did shoot them a lot. Not just factory calibers, but also larger rifle calibers too!
I've owned a deluxe #2 Ballard done similar to a high grade Union Hill for some years, and chambered in .32-40 Ballard. It was not a recent rework, and the barrel is original to the gun. But someone opened up the bored and re-rifled it, then chambered it to .32-40. I shoot it as a breech seater, with smokeless powder, and loads in the BP range. 
I'm only guessing it was rebored based on it being marked as a "32 Long" on the barrel, but having a larger .317" bore. I they could have followed the existing rifling, but don't think so since the twist rate is faster than what Marlin used for their .32 Long. Marlin used a 1:22" twist for .32 Long, and this is a 1:15" twist. And of course the dimensions are larger than the original .32 Long also.
At first glance you'd assume it was a nickeled frame Union Hill, but the 3 line address, caliber stamp, and cast frame tell the truth of what it is.

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art_ruggiero
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #26 - Apr 1st, 2021 at 1:43pm
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val   do you have a warehouse? Smiley   art
  
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marlinguy
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Re: No.2 Ballard actions
Reply #27 - Apr 2nd, 2021 at 10:08am
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art_ruggiero wrote on Apr 1st, 2021 at 1:43pm:
val   do you have a warehouse? Smiley   art


My wife thinks I do! Actually they're stuffed into 3 safes like cord wood. Some butt down, and the next row butt up, just to make the best use of limited space.
  

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