Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2]  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dinking with 219 Savage (Read 6779 times)
gnoahhh
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1002
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Joined: Mar 31st, 2010
Re: Dinking with 219 Savage
Reply #15 - Jan 14th, 2021 at 1:58pm
Print Post  
Initial .22 centerfires were .226-.228 bores. Witness the .22WCF and Savage .22 High Power. Then in the late 20's when initial experimentation led to the introduction of the .22 Hornet, 1930-ish, the platform was the M1 Springfield .22 rimfire. That really started the ball rolling toward the use of "small" .22 bores. .224 barrels weren't readily available to experimenters/wildcatters but good .22 rimfire barrels were, so that's what got used. Winchester, Savage, and Springfield Armory .22 rimfire barrels got installed on many a single shot action in an effort to make use of the revolutionary new cartridge - the .22 Hornet. (Even though factory ammo became available in 1930-31, the first factory-made rifles didn't appear until two years or so later.) That early reliance on rimfire barrels is what set the tone for Hornet barrel dimensions and bullet diameters for years afterward. 

My personal theory about .223" bullets is that they were a compromise between the need to fit early rimfire barrel rifles and the .224 barrels that coincidentally were making their way into use. No big deal to shoot a .223" bullet in a .222" barrel, and no big deal to shoot the same bullet in a .224" barrel - it'll swage down or bump up as needs be.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gwahir
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline


Ve gets too soon olt und
too late shmart.

Posts: 425
Location: montana
Joined: Dec 31st, 2005
Re: Dinking with 219 Savage
Reply #16 - Jan 14th, 2021 at 3:43pm
Print Post  
Yes. .222 bore will work for 223 bullets, and .224 some times! Here is another k hornet with a .22lr barrel that works with .224 bullets. (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Thanks for the info.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rkba2nd
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2053
Location: earth
Joined: Feb 16th, 2009
Re: Dinking with 219 Savage
Reply #17 - Jan 14th, 2021 at 5:19pm
Print Post  
I am not positve about this, but I believe Winchester was the first, or at least one of the first to offer the 22Hornet in 1933 in the model 54. They had .222 barrels (according to Rule) for quite some time, not sure when they started using .223 .224 Barrels in the Hornet. Savage had chambered the 22 hornet, with .223 barrels early on in their  model 23 and 219. I am sure .224 barrels were available to individuals some time before the large manufacturers switched to .224. Although when the Swift came out in 1937 they were fit with .224 barrels. Gnoahhh's theory is quite possible, but I would find it hard to imagine Winchester being too concerned with rifles with .222 barrels, although men like Whelen had considerable influence on companies like Winchester, especially given his role in the development of the Hornet. Besides, what's a few thousandths among friends. A lot to sort out, but my 54 Hornet slugged closer to .223. As Noahh pointed out, and is very often the case, Winchester introduced Hornet ammunition in 1930, but not the rifle till 1933. And as I have said, the hornet is one of my favorite cartridges, so sorting is sorta fun!!
  

rkba2nd
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rkba2nd
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2053
Location: earth
Joined: Feb 16th, 2009
Re: Dinking with 219 Savage
Reply #18 - Jan 14th, 2021 at 5:44pm
Print Post  
gwahir, Nice Martini. Is the barrel the original 22LR? I have never had either a Hornet or K Hornet in anything but .223 or 224. My reasons for opening up some Hornets to the K version was twofold, one, and of most importance, was to be able to headspace on the shouder and staighter case walls to help prevent case streching, hence longer case life, and secondly to pick up a few more fps. Again, a really neat round. Have a 1875 C Sharps in K Hornet with a Mark Chanlynn cut rifled stainless barrel, that just flat out shoots. Loads a fun. Stamped (Old Reliable) on the barrel, and it is.
  

rkba2nd
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rkba2nd
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2053
Location: earth
Joined: Feb 16th, 2009
Re: Dinking with 219 Savage
Reply #19 - Jan 14th, 2021 at 5:55pm
Print Post  
gwahir, first off, need to correct my own spelling (mom was a teacher) stretching. Second, Have you tried .223 bullets, and did they shoot better or worse than the .224, in your experience?
  

rkba2nd
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gnoahhh
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1002
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Joined: Mar 31st, 2010
Re: Dinking with 219 Savage
Reply #20 - Jan 14th, 2021 at 5:56pm
Print Post  
Savage actually beat Winchester to the marketplace with their Model 23.

One lesson I learned long ago in a galaxy far away was don't fall for a Low Wall Winder musket originally chambered for .22 shorts but which was subsequently re-chambered by Sedgley to .22 Hornet. I was young and ignorant (as opposed to now being old and ignorant, I suppose) and didn't fully grasp the concept of too slow of a twist. I cast bullets to match groove diameter plus a bit and never got the thing to shoot well. My then wife took pity on my frustrated self and bought me a 20x Unertl thinking a better sighting arrangement would be key to success. Still no joy in Mudville. The rifle went down the road and eventually so did the wife, but the Unertl remains 40 years later so I guess some good came of the fiasco(s).  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rkba2nd
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2053
Location: earth
Joined: Feb 16th, 2009
Re: Dinking with 219 Savage
Reply #21 - Jan 14th, 2021 at 6:05pm
Print Post  
gnoahhh,  Glad something did, it usually, read hopefully does. Do you happen to know how much earlier? The Savage that is. I like the 23, only one now is a 25-20, but had quite a few Hornets in the past. Always intrigued by the one piece barrel receiver.
  

rkba2nd
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gwahir
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline


Ve gets too soon olt und
too late shmart.

Posts: 425
Location: montana
Joined: Dec 31st, 2005
Re: Dinking with 219 Savage
Reply #22 - Jan 14th, 2021 at 7:07pm
Print Post  
rkba2nd wrote on Jan 14th, 2021 at 5:55pm:
gwahir, first off, need to correct my own spelling (mom was a teacher) stretching. Second, Have you tried .223 bullets, and did they shoot better or worse than the .224, in your experience?
I started with the 40gr 222 Jet bullet. I shot some 223 and then light 224. Everything shot well. It is the 22 lr barrel.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gnoahhh
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1002
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Joined: Mar 31st, 2010
Re: Dinking with 219 Savage
Reply #23 - Jan 14th, 2021 at 7:42pm
Print Post  
rkba2nd wrote on Jan 14th, 2021 at 6:05pm:
gnoahhh,  Glad something did, it usually, read hopefully does. Do you happen to know how much earlier? The Savage that is. I like the 23, only one now is a 25-20, but had quite a few Hornets in the past. Always intrigued by the one piece barrel receiver.


Savage M23D: 1932 (August, 1932 per Ken Waters)
Winchester M54 .22 Hornet: 1933 (according to David Bichrest, M54 historian) Hornet barrels exist with 1932 barrel dates but are on guns with 1933 serial numbers.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rkba2nd
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2053
Location: earth
Joined: Feb 16th, 2009
Re: Dinking with 219 Savage
Reply #24 - Jan 14th, 2021 at 8:16pm
Print Post  
Thanks to you both for the information. Will have to check the barrel date on the 54.
  

rkba2nd
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gnoahhh
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1002
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Joined: Mar 31st, 2010
Re: Dinking with 219 Savage
Reply #25 - Jan 15th, 2021 at 12:55am
Print Post  
I have a late 54 .22 Hornet, 1935, with Targetspot Junior 8x, converted to K-Hornet by Lysle Killbourn himself . As much as I'm taken with single shots now, this one is such a sweetheart - kind of like an old girlfriend that keeps calling you after you're married. You keep her number tucked in a corner of your wallet, "just in case". Her sisters, the Lovell wildcats in Springfields, Krags, and a High Wall make it difficult to stay focused.

Life is good.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tim_s
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 822
Location: 13066
Joined: Oct 11th, 2006
Re: Dinking with 219 Savage
Reply #26 - Jan 17th, 2021 at 7:23pm
Print Post  
Very interesting.  I have a DuBiel  Arms set trigger Hi Wall in R2 that sports a  bull barrel that you can faintly see Sedgley on it before reblue. Started life, I’d assume, as a hornet since it is .223 but shoots several .224’s quite well.
I posted an image up here earlier on a stock finish thread.
  

“ I don’t have to be faster than the bear, I just have to be faster than you”
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Send TopicPrint