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Ballard thoughts
Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:24am
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Does anyone have any information why Marlin stopped making Ballards ?
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #1 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 3:04pm
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For whatever it's worth, a knowledgeable Ballard collector once told me that Marlin was running its factory at full capacity making repeating rifles, other firearms and implements. There was still a demand for Ballard rifles but production had become a small part of the overall business. By redirecting the resources (material and manpower) from making Ballards to other production areas, Marlin could get a better return on investment (ROI = resources spent vs return on those resources). In short, it cost more for Marlin to produce Ballards than it cost to produce repeaters. Marlin could still run at full production capacity and they were able to increase profit without investing more money in the company. It was a simple business decision. 
IMO, if there had been large demand for Ballards, Marlin would have continued to make them.
I'm sure this is an oversimplification of the situation but I hope you get my drift.
  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #2 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 5:50pm
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How short sighted . They didn't care a bit about people 120 + years later. I do understand your answer though. I enjoy the anticipation when looking at auctions and the excitement when one pops up.
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #3 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:40pm
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Does anyone know what year they stopped making them? Antique classification starts at Pre 1899. Fitz. OLD TUCK Smiley
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #4 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:44pm
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I think they stopped production around 1891 from everything I’ve read.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #5 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 12:50am
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It goes a little further than profits being small because of the cost to produce the Marlin Ballard. If you recall John Marlin did not own the patent rights for the Ballard rifles. So he was given 5% of the ownership when he agreed to make the Ballard for Schoverling and Daly. Along with his 5% partnership, he sold each rifle to Schoverling & Daly for a small profit. But that profit was not equal to the profit margins he marked up his own repeating rifles. So he made less money building Ballard rifles for S&D than he did building repeaters for himself to sell.
At the time he had the Model 1881, 1888, and 1889 rifles all in production. Plus Remington had filed bankruptcy and John Marlin quickly snatched up LL Hepburn as his superintendent. Hepburn was busy designing the 1889 Marlin, which was Marlin's first side eject rifle. But he was also working on Marlin's first .22 lever action, and numerous other designs. 
Marlin repeaters were selling like hotcakes, for big profits. And John Marlin saw the various designs LL Hepburn had waiting to add to production, and simply made a great financial decision to stop making the Ballard, and put all his efforts into getting Hepburn's new designs into production. A sad thing then, and for decades afterwards. But good for Marlin.

PS-One other note. John Marlin was well known for not liking to ramp up production by hiring employees or expanding his factory if sales increased. He simply made people wait longer to get their orders, and only gradually increased his factory, and employees. So this habit of stunting growth was another reason he chose to eliminate the Ballard rifle from his production schedule.
« Last Edit: Oct 5th, 2020 at 12:58am by marlinguy »  

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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #6 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 12:54am
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Crown-C wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:44pm:
I think they stopped production around 1891 from everything I’ve read.


I believe they sold the last of them in 1891, but not sure if they were leftovers, or if any were produced that year? But it seems to be generally accepted as the last year.
  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #7 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 9:49pm
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.Just curious but why has.no manufacturer other than the Cody crowd taken up making Ballards again ? . The design seems no more complicated to make than say a Hi Wall or a Sharps and there are plenty of copies of those being produced.
I have handled a.friends Cody Ballard and it seemed to be well made, like I said, just curious.
Mike.
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #8 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 10:03pm
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Mick B
As with almost every other thing - follow the money.
Manufacturing the sort of target rifles most of us on this and similar forums (Schuetzen and BPCR) are interested in don't generate high profits. We are a low volume market and the return on investment to make rifles for us it too low to be of interest to producers. In order to motivate someone to make things to sell, such as custom target rifles, there has to be profit in it.
I don't mean any of this to be taken in a negative or positive way, it's just business reality.
  

Randy W
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #9 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 10:59pm
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I agree with your "business reality" point. Randy.  But at least for me it doesn't explain why Model 1885, Sharps, Hepburn, Stevens, and a few other single shot reproductions have done well enough to remain in production while the Ballard, beloved by so many of us, has not.  In particular, I've never understood why at least one of the Italian firms, especially Uberti or Pedersoli, hasn't taken it up.  Any thoughts?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #10 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 12:26am
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Bill
IMO, the main reason no one is making Ballard actions is that they, along with the Stevens 44, are weaker actions. Another example of follow the money due to the litigious society in which we live. Although for some reason(s) Winchester Low Wall type actions are made, go figure.
Don't get me wrong about Ballards. If some company started making quality rifles on Ballard actions I'd buy a couple more.
If anybody out there knows someone with a really large bag of money who wants to make rifles, maybe that person could be persuaded to start making Ballards Wink
  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #11 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 1:53am
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Mick B.  - "The design seems no more complicated to make than say a Hi Wall or a Sharps"

The Ballard is a whole 'nother animal...  Even making parts near identical on my CNC's still require considerable fitting and then parts don't interchange and "feel" right.  
The strength in the design as mentioned isn't there either, unlike the modern make of the low walls, the few changes they made changed it's characteristics considerably.  I don't feel that option is in the Ballards design without changing it considerably.

I don't think you'll see anyone making Ballards anytime soon.  I know if I had to put together a business plan and begin manufacturing Ballards, the economics aren't there - desires and passions won't cut it.  
Cody's are truly works of art and from a business standpoint I can't see how they sold them so cheap.   
Greg

*edited the rambling  Embarrassed it was too late when I replied initially
« Last Edit: Oct 6th, 2020 at 11:08am by GT »  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #12 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 12:17pm
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I believe if a gun maker today made the parts as investment castings, and then did the final machining and fitting they could keep the costs lower. And with modern metallurgy I think they could be even stronger than the originals were. Originals were chambered in .45-120, so if they could withstand that, I think modern clones could handle any old BP cartridges.
With Ruger's recent acquisition of Marlin, and their experience with investment casting, I'd love to see them offer a Ballard clone. But I wont hold my breath waiting to see. I doubt anyone will build another Ballard clone, but I sure hope someone does!
  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #13 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 6:29pm
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Hey Val
I wonder if the Direct Metal Laser Sintering (DMLS) process could be used to make Ballard actions and parts? That would be directly 3D printing the parts in metal. It would likely be pricey and I'm not sure what sorts of metals are compatible with that process but all that would be needed is a really good 3D CAD model of the end parts.
I like your idea of casting the parts but that normally requires large setup costs, UNLESS the wax masters for lost wax casting could be 3D printed?
Just throwing out some ideas . . .
  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #14 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 6:53pm
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I'm maybe not the best guy to pose these questions to Randy. I am not familiar with production machine costs, or techniques. But I do think a company like Ruger that's spent so many years perfecting investment castings would be a step ahead of others in this area.
Not sure what they could build a Ballard for, but I believe if a company could build a quality copy and have it hit the market at around $3500 they could sell them. If they could get the price below $3000 I think they could sell even more.
Considering what I see used Cody Ballard Rifle Co. clones sell for, I can't see how they couldn't sell them. And used originals are still getting big money too.
  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #15 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 7:45pm
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It’s my understanding that the Ballard Rifle and Cartridge Company acquired the rights to the Ballard Rifle name so they are not clones.  Maybe “continuations” .
Regardless, they produced excellent rifles likely as good or better than Marlin.  They were not inexpensive 20 years ago and seem to hold their value today. I think that is a testament to the people who produced them.
JMHO.
Mike.
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #16 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 9:00pm
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True. They were an assembly of some of the greatest talent available at that time. I would put their work up against any production shop before or since.
  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #17 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 5:19am
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As an aside, does anybody know the total number of Cody Ballards that were manufactured?

I have one, and it's sublime!

The serial number of mine is 1089.

Curl
« Last Edit: Oct 7th, 2020 at 5:31am by CptCurl »  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #18 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 7:02am
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Thanks everyone for your opinions and info.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #19 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 4:29pm
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4570mike wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 7:45pm:
It’s my understanding that the Ballard Rifle and Cartridge Company acquired the rights to the Ballard Rifle name so they are not clones.  Maybe “continuations” .
Regardless, they produced excellent rifles likely as good or better than Marlin.  They were not inexpensive 20 years ago and seem to hold their value today. I think that is a testament to the people who produced them.
JMHO.
Mike.


I think they discovered that nobody owned the name, and simply registered it to themselves. Thus sealing the deal for their own use, and any future use by others.

They were as good, and even better than originals because of modern metallurgy, and the talent of some of the finest modern gunsmiths of that time. Not sure any company could assemble such a group today! But I do think the possibility of building a quality Ballard is real. Just what it would cost, and who could build them?

I had 5 Cody Ballards that were part of a friend's estate years ago. He told his wife to get them to me to sell; which I did. Along with his guns were all the original paperwork from late 1990's to early 2000's. I personally was shocked at how reasonably priced the guns were! His were all high grade models that had better wood, set triggers, checkering, and better finish. And his .22 had a receipt with it from 1998 for under $2,000. He had a beautiful #6 with crescent buttplate in .38-50, #4 in .45-70, #6 in .40-65, and a Schoyen in .22LR. None of them was over $2900 new price.
Even back 15-20 yrs. ago I found these prices reasonable for the high end finish, and high quality. And several were ordered with MVA sights on them from Cody.
  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #20 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 11:03pm
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RSW wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 6:29pm:
Hey Val
I wonder if the Direct Metal Laser Sintering (DMLS) process could be used to make Ballard actions and parts? That would be directly 3D printing the parts in metal. It would likely be pricey and I'm not sure what sorts of metals are compatible with that process but all that would be needed is a really good 3D CAD model of the end parts.
I like your idea of casting the parts but that normally requires large setup costs, UNLESS the wax masters for lost wax casting could be 3D printed?
Just throwing out some ideas . . .


Funny that you should mention that, I've been looking into doing this very thing this week. I'm trying to find someone that has a better understanding of 3d printing than me to do a 3d printed rendering of a Ballard rec. so I can do a lost wax casting of it out of brass.
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #21 - Oct 8th, 2020 at 11:02am
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willsweptline wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 11:03pm:
[quote author=6B5A495B40776449464C41464F280 link=1601825081/13#13 date=1602023345]

Funny that you should mention that, I've been looking into doing this very thing this week. I'm trying to find someone that has a better understanding of 3d printing than me to do a 3d printed rendering of a Ballard rec. so I can do a lost wax casting of it out of brass.


You might contact The Rifle Shoppe and see what their receivers go for? They're pre-Marlin style, but not sure which Ballard they copied?

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #22 - Oct 8th, 2020 at 2:17pm
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Did any pre-Marlin Ballard have set triggers?  I ask because The Rifle Shoppe lists those parts plus the fly among their Ballard parts.  Also, I note that under "price", the action listing says "Call", suggesting that they cast them on demand and giving me hope that if they have a model to work from (which they were then allowed to add to their line), they might accommodate willsweptline.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #23 - Oct 8th, 2020 at 2:49pm
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Might as well throw in my two cents worth . . . 
Consider contacting Rodney Storie.
rodney4477@yahoo.com
He has offered Ballard action steel castings in the past. Perhaps he has a set of castings on hand?
While his actions would require significant work to finish, they should be better than starting from scratch.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #24 - Oct 8th, 2020 at 3:19pm
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MrTipUp wrote on Oct 8th, 2020 at 2:17pm:
Did any pre-Marlin Ballard have set triggers?  I ask because The Rifle Shoppe lists those parts plus the fly among their Ballard parts.  Also, I note that under "price", the action listing says "Call", suggesting that they cast them on demand and giving me hope that if they have a model to work from (which they were then allowed to add to their line), they might accommodate willsweptline.

Bill Lawrence


That I'm aware of there wasn't a set trigger option on pre Marlin Ballard models. But I've purchased from The  Rifle Shoppe previously and been told he carries old style, and new style Marlin mainsprings, so I think he has parts for both. Of course the set trigger parts would be Marlin only I'd assume. Mainsprings are the single leaf Marlin, or double leaf pre Marlin.
It's always better to call even on parts listed, as he's a good guy to deal with.
  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #25 - Oct 8th, 2020 at 8:32pm
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While on the subject, may i pose a question re: mainsprings? I bought a roller mainspring from Steve Earle (a nicely rendered work of art, IMO), but it is decidedly heavier in cross section than the original in my #3 action. Hammer fall is definitely snappier (and probably a cure for the occasional light strike/misfire I experience), but trigger pull went from a delectable scant 2 pounds to an unacceptable 5 pounds. (Firing pin nose looks fine by the way.) I put the original spring back in because I'm not comfortable attacking the sear geometry with stones. Recommendations? Earle's "regular" spring, one from the Rifle Shoppe, or just live with it?
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #26 - Oct 8th, 2020 at 10:52pm
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The Rifle Shoppe mainsprings are not heat treated as he sells them. But if you call him you can get them heat treated.
I've found any new mainspring will usually be heavier than 130 yr. old springs, and I usually work them over to remove some of the heavy feel.
  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #27 - Nov 13th, 2020 at 6:29pm
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RSW wrote on Oct 8th, 2020 at 2:49pm:
Might as well throw in my two cents worth . . . 
Consider contacting Rodney Storie.
rodney4477@yahoo.com
He has offered Ballard action steel castings in the past. Perhaps he has a set of castings on hand?
While his actions would require significant work to finish, they should be better than starting from scratch.



I just ordered a Ballard ST casting set from Rodney yesterday, but I understood this was the last set he currently had on hand. It also sounds like his casting endeavors are getting more attention since he retired last year. Here's a photo of the Ballard kit he emailed me last week:


  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #28 - Nov 13th, 2020 at 11:19pm
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That set of castings are a heck-of a head start.
Have avoided castings because set-ups takes so much more time than the machine cuts.
Might as well use bar stock and establish reference planes
Those casting look really good and may change my mind.
Chuck
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #29 - Nov 14th, 2020 at 10:19am
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As an aside, Ron Long used my engraved Ballard action as the model for Cody Ballards.  He and Neil Rice built me a fabulous .22 on that action with a Ron Smith barrel.  John Dutcher had one almost identical.
  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #30 - Nov 24th, 2020 at 12:48pm
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Just my opinion based on gut feel. No data to back it up. 

I don't think any other process can approach lost wax for economy. 
3D for metal gets used where the parts are  complex and difficult to  do any other way.

The price of Storey's castings should give you a hint on base costs; and he still has to have a decent profit built in. For small volume production start with those castings, contrive a way to index them for  machining and get with it.   Broach or EDM the mortice. 

CNC all the small parts. 

Alternatives:   
Picatinny Arsenal used electron beam welding to fuse halves of some AR's. I suspect the real cost of that operation alone is in the range of $150 each. Kinda ruins the economics. Wink
I think about submerged arc for welding halves together. No proof that one can produce an unwarped part though. Fun to think about but any process takes a lot of development.

A striker Ballard might actually sell well. Looks somewhat like the original and should shoot rather well.   

As an example of modern manufacture from billet: steve earle's Fraser. A lot of EDM and then hand work to finish. $2650 or so just for the action. Also no heat treating!

Just rambling thoughts and a cup of coffee.


As to the low wall Browning; modern metallurgy and some redesign to add metal in critical places makes it much stronger than the originals.
  
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