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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ballard thoughts (Read 9077 times)
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Ballard thoughts
Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:24am
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Does anyone have any information why Marlin stopped making Ballards ?
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #1 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 3:04pm
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For whatever it's worth, a knowledgeable Ballard collector once told me that Marlin was running its factory at full capacity making repeating rifles, other firearms and implements. There was still a demand for Ballard rifles but production had become a small part of the overall business. By redirecting the resources (material and manpower) from making Ballards to other production areas, Marlin could get a better return on investment (ROI = resources spent vs return on those resources). In short, it cost more for Marlin to produce Ballards than it cost to produce repeaters. Marlin could still run at full production capacity and they were able to increase profit without investing more money in the company. It was a simple business decision. 
IMO, if there had been large demand for Ballards, Marlin would have continued to make them.
I'm sure this is an oversimplification of the situation but I hope you get my drift.
  

Randy W
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #2 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 5:50pm
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How short sighted . They didn't care a bit about people 120 + years later. I do understand your answer though. I enjoy the anticipation when looking at auctions and the excitement when one pops up.
  
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OLD TUCK
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #3 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:40pm
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Does anyone know what year they stopped making them? Antique classification starts at Pre 1899. Fitz. OLD TUCK Smiley
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #4 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:44pm
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I think they stopped production around 1891 from everything I’ve read.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #5 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 12:50am
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It goes a little further than profits being small because of the cost to produce the Marlin Ballard. If you recall John Marlin did not own the patent rights for the Ballard rifles. So he was given 5% of the ownership when he agreed to make the Ballard for Schoverling and Daly. Along with his 5% partnership, he sold each rifle to Schoverling & Daly for a small profit. But that profit was not equal to the profit margins he marked up his own repeating rifles. So he made less money building Ballard rifles for S&D than he did building repeaters for himself to sell.
At the time he had the Model 1881, 1888, and 1889 rifles all in production. Plus Remington had filed bankruptcy and John Marlin quickly snatched up LL Hepburn as his superintendent. Hepburn was busy designing the 1889 Marlin, which was Marlin's first side eject rifle. But he was also working on Marlin's first .22 lever action, and numerous other designs. 
Marlin repeaters were selling like hotcakes, for big profits. And John Marlin saw the various designs LL Hepburn had waiting to add to production, and simply made a great financial decision to stop making the Ballard, and put all his efforts into getting Hepburn's new designs into production. A sad thing then, and for decades afterwards. But good for Marlin.

PS-One other note. John Marlin was well known for not liking to ramp up production by hiring employees or expanding his factory if sales increased. He simply made people wait longer to get their orders, and only gradually increased his factory, and employees. So this habit of stunting growth was another reason he chose to eliminate the Ballard rifle from his production schedule.
« Last Edit: Oct 5th, 2020 at 12:58am by marlinguy »  

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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #6 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 12:54am
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Crown-C wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:44pm:
I think they stopped production around 1891 from everything I’ve read.


I believe they sold the last of them in 1891, but not sure if they were leftovers, or if any were produced that year? But it seems to be generally accepted as the last year.
  

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Mick B
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #7 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 9:49pm
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.Just curious but why has.no manufacturer other than the Cody crowd taken up making Ballards again ? . The design seems no more complicated to make than say a Hi Wall or a Sharps and there are plenty of copies of those being produced.
I have handled a.friends Cody Ballard and it seemed to be well made, like I said, just curious.
Mike.
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #8 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 10:03pm
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Mick B
As with almost every other thing - follow the money.
Manufacturing the sort of target rifles most of us on this and similar forums (Schuetzen and BPCR) are interested in don't generate high profits. We are a low volume market and the return on investment to make rifles for us it too low to be of interest to producers. In order to motivate someone to make things to sell, such as custom target rifles, there has to be profit in it.
I don't mean any of this to be taken in a negative or positive way, it's just business reality.
  

Randy W
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #9 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 10:59pm
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I agree with your "business reality" point. Randy.  But at least for me it doesn't explain why Model 1885, Sharps, Hepburn, Stevens, and a few other single shot reproductions have done well enough to remain in production while the Ballard, beloved by so many of us, has not.  In particular, I've never understood why at least one of the Italian firms, especially Uberti or Pedersoli, hasn't taken it up.  Any thoughts?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #10 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 12:26am
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Bill
IMO, the main reason no one is making Ballard actions is that they, along with the Stevens 44, are weaker actions. Another example of follow the money due to the litigious society in which we live. Although for some reason(s) Winchester Low Wall type actions are made, go figure.
Don't get me wrong about Ballards. If some company started making quality rifles on Ballard actions I'd buy a couple more.
If anybody out there knows someone with a really large bag of money who wants to make rifles, maybe that person could be persuaded to start making Ballards Wink
  

Randy W
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #11 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 1:53am
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Mick B.  - "The design seems no more complicated to make than say a Hi Wall or a Sharps"

The Ballard is a whole 'nother animal...  Even making parts near identical on my CNC's still require considerable fitting and then parts don't interchange and "feel" right.  
The strength in the design as mentioned isn't there either, unlike the modern make of the low walls, the few changes they made changed it's characteristics considerably.  I don't feel that option is in the Ballards design without changing it considerably.

I don't think you'll see anyone making Ballards anytime soon.  I know if I had to put together a business plan and begin manufacturing Ballards, the economics aren't there - desires and passions won't cut it.  
Cody's are truly works of art and from a business standpoint I can't see how they sold them so cheap.   
Greg

*edited the rambling  Embarrassed it was too late when I replied initially
« Last Edit: Oct 6th, 2020 at 11:08am by GT »  

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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #12 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 12:17pm
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I believe if a gun maker today made the parts as investment castings, and then did the final machining and fitting they could keep the costs lower. And with modern metallurgy I think they could be even stronger than the originals were. Originals were chambered in .45-120, so if they could withstand that, I think modern clones could handle any old BP cartridges.
With Ruger's recent acquisition of Marlin, and their experience with investment casting, I'd love to see them offer a Ballard clone. But I wont hold my breath waiting to see. I doubt anyone will build another Ballard clone, but I sure hope someone does!
  

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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #13 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 6:29pm
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Hey Val
I wonder if the Direct Metal Laser Sintering (DMLS) process could be used to make Ballard actions and parts? That would be directly 3D printing the parts in metal. It would likely be pricey and I'm not sure what sorts of metals are compatible with that process but all that would be needed is a really good 3D CAD model of the end parts.
I like your idea of casting the parts but that normally requires large setup costs, UNLESS the wax masters for lost wax casting could be 3D printed?
Just throwing out some ideas . . .
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Re: Ballard thoughts
Reply #14 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 6:53pm
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I'm maybe not the best guy to pose these questions to Randy. I am not familiar with production machine costs, or techniques. But I do think a company like Ruger that's spent so many years perfecting investment castings would be a step ahead of others in this area.
Not sure what they could build a Ballard for, but I believe if a company could build a quality copy and have it hit the market at around $3500 they could sell them. If they could get the price below $3000 I think they could sell even more.
Considering what I see used Cody Ballard Rifle Co. clones sell for, I can't see how they couldn't sell them. And used originals are still getting big money too.
  

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