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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary (Read 11524 times)
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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #15 - Apr 27th, 2020 at 3:14am
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In one of Smoke's postings above, he quotes the Amoskeag catalog listing as including  "Pope made three barrels in this caliber, two sporting rifles and one Winchester single shot which he made for Lucian Cary." 

What do you suppose "sporting rifle" meant, perhaps bolt actions like Krag, which would sort of justify using a rimmed case wildcat?
  

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MrTipUp
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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #16 - Apr 27th, 2020 at 7:08am
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"Sporting" as opposed to "target" has little if anything to do with the type of action and everything to do with configuration, total weight, and to some extent caliber.  And speaking only for myself, I would not call the .308-405 being discussed in this post a "sporting" rifle.

Bill Lawrence
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #17 - Apr 27th, 2020 at 10:55am
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There are some things about the rifle in this post that indeed are not the norm for a Sporting Rifle. But mainly the bulbous BSA forearm, and Schuetzen lever. Beyond that the rest would fit in with a Sporting Rifle just fine. 
But maybe the 3 guns referred to were more Sporting Rifles than bench rifles? And maybe nothing like the rifle pictured?
  

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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #18 - Apr 27th, 2020 at 11:24am
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Before we go too far down this rabbit hole it might be worth revisiting the Amoskeag blurb:

Pope made three barrels in this caliber, two sporting rifles and one Winchester single shot which he made for Lucian Cary.

Note that they are not saying the Highwall was a sporting rifle.  If Pope made it for Cary then there's a good chance he made it to Cary's specifications.

As to what you would call the design, we're calling it the Cary Pope Highwall.

Pictures will be sent to Tom Rowe for possible inclusion in his next book on Pope rifles.   

Let's see what he calls it.
  
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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #19 - Apr 27th, 2020 at 5:07pm
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Appears the rifle was made for Hunting but on the other hand it doesn't. It appears to have a fold down front sight and a front sling attachment but there is nothing installed on the back. Pope did allot for his friend Lucian Cary but I haven't seen anything mentioned about Lucian being a hunter or going out with Pope to do the same. Pope also took a liking to his 30-40 Krag and one might tend to think he would have talked Lucian into also using the same.
  

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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #20 - Apr 27th, 2020 at 5:20pm
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No front sight.

That's a "scope" block (like for an Olympic or Lyman 17A).

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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #21 - Apr 27th, 2020 at 5:38pm
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Thank you Smoke my eyes are getting old and tired. It's a very nice piece of Pope history and it is also very unique.
  

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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #22 - Oct 19th, 2020 at 12:56am
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Recently I came across this in a 1905 issue of Shooting & Fishing. I thought you fans of the Pope .30-405 might find it interesting. No article about this, just this group facsimile and load info.
  

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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #23 - Oct 19th, 2020 at 11:23am
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That's very interesting, even with its minimal information. Since the issue is from 1905, Pope would've still been officially employed by Stevens.  Therefore, if this is the first .30-405 rifle, might Pope have been developing the cartridge for Stevens?  Also, while the "Stevens-Pope" rifle used was clearly capable of fine accuracy, the cartridge itself, especially with jacketed bullets, seems more likely to have been developed as a high-velocity hunting round, a goal which many shooters (and rifle-making companies) were working on  in those days.  In any case, it seems probable that this note references the first of the supposed three Pope .30-405  barrels, said barrel being mounted on a 44-1/2 action as well as used by Pope himself.  I wonder what happened to that rifle, especially as Pope left Stevens at the end of December, 1905?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #24 - Oct 19th, 2020 at 1:59pm
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Does anybody have a picture of that cartridge?  41 gr of Laflin and Rand powder was used. I'm assuming that's a new semi smokeless or smokeless powder because if it were black powder, it wouldn't be nearly enough to fill the case.
  
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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #25 - Oct 19th, 2020 at 2:13pm
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Here is a bit of data on L&R WA smokeless powder:

W-A .30 Calibre Powder was also known as .30 Caliber Smokeless, created originally by Whistler and Aspinwall for the Leonard and then the American Smokeless Powder Companies, for the 30-40 Krag government cartridge. It was not introduced to the public by L&R until 1898, even though it had been in production for the government since 1895. It consisted of yellow tubular or hexagonal grains .08” dia. X .04” and containing 30% NG. By 1898, all L&R powders seem to have been graphited. After 1900, the type two powder consisted of perforated black discs – (graphited) .08” dia. X .045”.

Hercules discontinued W-A .30 Caliber in 1930. A one-pound can originally cost $1.25. Thirty six grains was the standard load with a 220 grain bullet in the 30–40 Krag. It had a burning speed somewhere between that of Reloader 7 and Reloader 12.
« Last Edit: Oct 19th, 2020 at 3:42pm by RSW »  

Randy W
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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #26 - Oct 19th, 2020 at 2:23pm
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Thanks for sharing that information Randy it is very interesting to myself.
  

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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #27 - Oct 19th, 2020 at 10:00pm
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Thanks Randy, that's a neat piece of history.
  
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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #28 - Oct 21st, 2020 at 2:02am
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Old-Win wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 1:59pm:
Does anybody have a picture of that cartridge?

One will be forthcoming later this week.

Stay tuned!
  
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Re: Pope Hiwall in .30-405 for Lucian Cary
Reply #29 - Oct 24th, 2020 at 2:38pm
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Pictured below are a case for .30-405, formed from .405 Win brass, a 168 gr. bullet, and the 7 shot, 100 yd, group shot with that bullet and 14.3 gr 4227.

I don't have a pic of the loaded cartridge because the friend who owns the gun shoots breech seated.
« Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2020 at 2:43pm by Smoke »  
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