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.22-5-40
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Duplexing with black?
Jan 5th, 2019 at 1:35pm
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I have heard some members do this for cleaner burn where smokeless powders are forbidden.  I was wondering if it was possible..or safe to use the fast burning Swiss 4FG priming powder..say 2 to 5 grains next to primer?  Swiss warns not to use this powder in any amount for propellant.   But if small charge of smokeless is safe..wouldn't tiny charge of 4FG be OK?  Is it worth the effort?  Thanks.
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Duplexing with black?
Reply #1 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 2:04pm
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A small amount of smokeless powder results in better combustion of the black powder resulting in cleaner fouling.

When you are not allowed to use duplex loads; you can use magnum primers to accomplish the same task.
  
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Re: Duplexing with black?
Reply #2 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 2:09pm
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The theory behind it (as I was told) is that smokeless when burning has a surplus of oxygen, whereas black doesn't  - reaason for the solid residue (unburnt) left behind.  So using BP won't help there.  Upping the pressure does though, it might help keeping the solid from condensing unitill at least most has exited the barrel.   
Upping the pressure with BP = increasing the charge.  As faster powder won't really help, as pressure will drop quicker compared to slower powder.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Duplexing with black?
Reply #3 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:11pm
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The practice was quite common before the advent of reasonably priced longer cases for the .45s in LR shooting.  Nearly everyone was shooting a .45-70 with duplex using  about 10% smokeless by weight. 4227, 4759 and Reloader 7 were quite common. 

Caution:  25% smokeless can  raise the pressure and be quite dangerous.
  

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Re: Duplexing with black?
Reply #4 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:32am
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The closest I got to duplexing black powder of differing grain sizes was when I used 5 gr of Pyrodex Pistol on top of 45 gr of Pyrodex Cartridge in a reproduction Sharps Carbine.  The thought was that once the main charge was ignited and pushing the bullet down the barrel, the finer grained stuff, burning last, would give it an added jolt of acceleration after the bullet had passed the critical leade area and was safely confined in the barrel.  It seemed to work; accuracy was a smidge better than with 50 gr of Pyrodex Cartridge.

Never tried the fine powder down near the primer at the bottom.  I figured a violent kick down there wouldn’t do the bullet any good as it exited the case and went through the leade, and the Pyrodex, of whatever grain size, had no trouble igniting with standard primers.  Black powder would have the same ease of ignition.

I only duplex with smokeless when the black powder cartridge gets below .38 caliber and above 30 gr powder.  The fouling issue can be managed with straight black in the larger bores and charges; there, I’m still doing more shooting than cleaning.  Down in the .32 range with 30 gr or more  of powder, the hassle of duplexing becomes less than that of cleaning with a little shooting in between, which is what I experience with straight black in these sizes.  Haven’t tried a .35 or .33 caliber yet; I would surmise they would be right at the balance point between the care needed in duplexing and the work of wiping.
  
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Re: Duplexing with black?
Reply #5 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 11:48am
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I've heard stories that I could shoot duplex loads and not have to clean the bore and shoot just like I was using smokeless.

I tried it a couple of times with 10% SR-4759 and to be honest I didn't really see the bore being much cleaner than with 100% black powder.   Maybe I did something wrong  Cheesy

Chris.
  
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Re: Duplexing with black?
Reply #6 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 2:02pm
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The only smokeless duplexing I have done is with an original Ballard in .25-25 Stevens.  I was using Swiss 3FG & at 50yds., using straight black & blowtube would hold 1" groups.  Pushing 1 barely damp patch thru after each shot would give 3/8" groups.  I thought duplex load would eliminate wiping.  I tried 2-5grs. 4759 & bore looked no different than straight black.  Tried 3grs. PB & bore looked like straight smokeless load was fired.  However, accuracy wasn't there until 1 barely damp patch thru was used after each shot.  I thought why bother? & have been using straight black since.
  
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Re: Duplexing with black?
Reply #7 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 4:08pm
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gunlaker wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 11:48am:
I've heard stories that I could shoot duplex loads and not have to clean the bore and shoot just like I was using smokeless.

I tried it a couple of times with 10% SR-4759 and to be honest I didn't really see the bore being much cleaner than with 100% black powder.   Maybe I did something wrong  Cheesy

Chris.


I think Reloader 7 and maybe a few others I do not recall were a little better than 4227 and 4759.  Everyone did it.  Nobody shot straight BP and nobody wiped the bore or used blow tubes between shots that I recall. Bill Crane told me use just enough smokeless to clear the bore. 

When  I got my .45-2.6 to shoot straight BP in LR, it didn't seem to want to shoot.  I loaded up some duplex to see and it shot very well.  I kept working BP until I figured it out.  Of course, in those days there were only a few local rumors about how to do it.  No www advise yet  Shocked   

Tom Selleck fixed all that withr Quigley Down Under in 1990 and Al Gore invented the immermett to distribute the load data  and advise Roll Eyes  I wish I had known about the advantages of PP bullets in LR shooting.  The only 2 guys using them could not compete with the grease groove shooters but most of our matches were limited to 600 yards.  Only Douglas Ridge in OR made 800 and Heals at Victoria, BC had 1000.  WE did have a few 1000 yd shoots at KD 22 on Ft Lewis, but the military was impossible to deal with so they were no very many.  One of the PP shooters was shooting groups bigger than the target frame a 1000  Embarrassed

The reason I started to shoot straight BP in LR was at the shooters meeting at Ottawa in 1993, the Brits said if they were going to shoot any more world competitions it would have to be straight BP.  All but one of them were shooting original muzzle loaders. They placed 3rd.   The Americans were 2nd shooting buffalo style guns with duplex and windgage front sites.  The Canadians won shooting Martini target rifles, heavy loads of duplex and Australian Central receiver mounted target sights.  Tom Matpack of the US team was high individual because of his phenomenal wind reading ability.  His shooting pardner, Chuck Virgin, was 2nd high individual.  Clearly, equipment and duplex won the day in the team competition. 

I think I did get my .45-2.6 with straight BP to shoot slightly better than my .45-70 with duplex but I do not have any group measurements for comparison.   ............continued.........
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Re: Duplexing with black?
Reply #8 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 4:09pm
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............here...........

Manley Oakley a benchrest shooter at Tacoma who held a few national records could not believe I could shoot 10 shot groups a fuzz over 1 MOA at 200 yds with the .45-2.6.  I don't recall doing that with the .45-70 and duplex, but they were under 2 MOA. 

Your mileage may vary  Cool
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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