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Gunfunpow
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Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Jan 5th, 2019 at 12:10am
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So I have this really nice unissued 1889 inspected trapdoor and was wondering if it was designed around a PPB, or a lubricated greaser? I have swiss 1.5 powder and Federal number 215 primers with Remington cases to use for components. Does any one shoot these old rifles with paper patches?
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #1 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 3:32am
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Not me, I used Lyman 457125, 50-50 wheel weights and lead, unsized.
  

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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #2 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 6:37am
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The .45 caliber Springfield was cutting edge technology for its time, made to shoot “dirty” with “naked” bullets.  I haven’t heard of anyone trying paper patch in an original; the 457124, 457125 and the Postell (forget the number) seem, from my reading, to be the ones to use.

You could buy some paper patch bullets from Buffalo Arms and try them out, some combination might work.
  
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Ranch13
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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #3 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:39am
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The trapdoor was designed to shoot a .458 diameter bullet grooved bullet, 1.1 inches in length cast from 16-1, and could have a hollow swaged in the base that would be deep enough to bring the weight of the bullet within specifications, but not so deep as to affect accuracy.
They will shoot paper patch, but it's a pain in the butt to keep the bore clean enough for accurate shooting.
If your rifle is an infantry rifle, the Saeco 1881 bullet is a good choice, carbine look for a good 405 gr bullet with lube groove's sufficient to carry enough lube to keep the fouling manageable.
  
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calledflyer
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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #4 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 11:30am
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Mine shot the Lee 405 pretty well, but it really shined with a borrowed mold of 500 (give or take). Of course, it kicked more. Those were with smokeless powder, and it'll need a higher front sight for ranges under about 150 yards. I wish I'd kept mine, also a rod bayonet version.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #5 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:16pm
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I loaded a few Lyman 405 gr bullets for our Trapdoor matches one time thinking of reducing recoil.  It was a looser  Embarrassed  Not accurate enuf for match shooting  Cry  Results were so poor compared to the big Lyman, I did not put any time or effort into working with the bullet.   This was in the days before Quigley Down Under.  Bullet choices were limited as were custom mold makers.
  

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Jeff_Schultz
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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #6 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 6:15pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:16pm:
I loaded a few Lyman 405 gr bullets for our Trapdoor matches one time thinking of reducing recoil.  It was a looser  Embarrassed  Not accurate enuf for match shooting  Cry  Results were so poor compared to the big Lyman, I did not put any time or effort into working with the bullet.   This was in the days before Quigley Down Under.  Bullet choices were limited as were custom mold makers.


  Regretably true. I monkeyed with it a lot and found nothing to equal that big government bullet with blackpowder.
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #7 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 7:54pm
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You need to slug, any TD, before getting a mold. The groove diameters are all over the place. Usually very large.

The Lee 450 gr mold is a excellent bullet for these rifles, if the groove size will allow for a .458 bullet. They have wide lands and the bore riding nose, of that bullet, loves it.

Frank
  

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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #8 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:31pm
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My TD loads have worked very well for me and a friend.
up to 600 yds  Gong Match winning.
Using 2F Goex, 69-70 grains, 0.060 LDPE wad, compressed 
to seat the 457125 ,500gr Govt bullet as cast from 9+1 ww/lino, Emmertini lube, finger seat in FF WW cases primed with WLR.
Frank is right about slugging the bore. I had one that was all of 0.462-0.463 groove diameter. Its gone, even tho it was better condition from the one I kept. But the latter
had about a 0.459" groove diameter.   
Also, I believe the 0.060 LDPE wads-which are cut at 0.465" dia. help seal even tho a bullet might be a bit small for groove dia.
ALSO.  something was mentioned about problems wiping
a TD.  I make up Flex Jag Adaptors that, along with my
5/16" Delrin rod and bore guide allow easy wiping of a TD
(or a Martini) From The Breech end.
beltfed/arnie
  
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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #9 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 9:05pm
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Good information Arnie, thanks.

Have to get my buddy to slug his TD.
  

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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #10 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 9:54pm
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I have had great results with bullets weighing between 405 and 440 grains ( they were all supposed to be 405 gr but most weighed in higher). Also had good luck with the 500 gr. round nose govt bullet, but all with smokeless powder. Recoil was not an issue with the lighter bullets. both the 405 and 500 shot well with light loads. I suspect the same might be true with black powder but you have to invest the time to find out. 
Joe S
  
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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #11 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 10:27pm
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Mine will shoot a clean 200m highpower target with either lymans 457125 or a Postell seated to engage the rifling a touch when you close the breach, 215m primer, .060 fiber wad and enough Swiss 1 1/2 to have about 1/16 compression. Trapdoor has quite a bit of caming power. I wipe between shots with a delrin rod from the breach end.
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #12 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 10:50pm
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       Full loads of powder and 500 gr bullets in a TD make me TIRED!   I cut out a 457124 mould to cast about .463, and loaded 1:20 bullets over 47 gr Swiss 1.5 and 14-15 gr amaranth seed filler to give about 1150 fps.   Velocity SD was low single digits, and it was very pleasant to shoot.   It beat Dennis Bruns (Mr Trapdoor, hisself) in the military class at the BPTR Nationals one year, and it won a local military rifle fun match against M1's etc.   Like several others, I use a flexible rod and wipe between shots.

CHRIS
RGChristensen
  
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John in PA
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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #13 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 10:50am
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Gunfunpow wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 12:10am:
So I have this really nice unissued 1889 inspected trapdoor and was wondering if it was designed around a PPB, or a lubricated greaser?


In replying to the OP's original question, your 1889 trapdoor was designed around the 500 grain armory bullet, grooved and inside lubricated, sometimes called the 1881 bullet. Approximately 5% tin, (NO antimony). This bullet by Accurate Molds closely duplicates the original  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
If original military-style ammunition is fired in your rifle, the rifle will shoot to the sights at specified ranges. The best way to produce duplicate military ammunition for your rifle is to follow all the steps and procedures outlined by Spence Wolf in his book,  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) Even though the long nose of the bullet is considerably under bore diameter, when ammo is prepared as per Spence's instructions, 1:20 alloy, the nose bumps up to bore ride for about 3/4 of it's length, as proven by bullet's I captured in deep snow many years  ago.  I can hit a 14" gong at 350 yards over and over again with this load in a Model 1888 trapdoor, with only a blow pipe between shots

Prior to the transition to the 500 gr bullet in the 1880's, the arsenal bullet was a 405 gr grooved lubricated bullet *with a small hollow* in the base to aid expansion. This bullet is reasonably close to the current Lee bullet mold here (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) (Note, Lee offers the same bullet as a double cavity, but it is NOT a hollow base) 


  

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texasmac
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Re: Original trapdoor 45-70 bullet choices
Reply #14 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 12:42am
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frnkeore wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 7:54pm:
You need to slug, any TD, before getting a mold. The groove diameters are all over the place. Usually very large.

The Lee 450 gr mold is a excellent bullet for these rifles, if the groove size will allow for a .458 bullet. They have wide lands and the bore riding nose, of that bullet, loves it.
Frank


GrumpyBear wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 9:05pm:
Good information Arnie, thanks.
Have to get my buddy to slug his TD.


As Frank noted, slugging the bore is good advice due to the various groove diameters found in the TDs.  The problem is the 3-groove bore is not easy to measure accurately unless one has a V-anvil micrometer.  Since I have one I've offered in the past to measure bore slugs if you don't want them back.  You will have to pack them up carefully to prevent the soft lead from damage during shipping.  If interested PM me for my address.  

BTW, I don't charge for the service.  It's my way of acquiring casting lead.  Wink Roll Eyes

Wayne
  

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