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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Turning Necks (Read 20152 times)
JLouis
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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #15 - May 24th, 2018 at 5:08pm
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BobZ being one who has spent countless hours at the range trying prove or disapproved countless and assorted variables to myself to eliminate I have taken a case rotated it a 1/4 turn each shot and it will form a circle around the 25 ring. I have done it so many times over the years and at times just to show someone the effects that I have proven it to hold true to myself beyond any doubt. But it is also if you think about it really meaningless as it only verifies the need for one to index his case if only using just the one. If using multiple cases it then becomes a real big concern all together in that it can and will drop points intead of gaining them. 

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« Last Edit: May 24th, 2018 at 5:18pm by JLouis »  

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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #16 - May 24th, 2018 at 5:42pm
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My guess thought be

Just because the outside of the case, primer pocket, and flash hole are parallel to the bore, does not mean that the inside of the case is.

A sizing die will square the outside of the case to the base and center the neck. Inside is never checked. The case could have not been drawn straight when formed

If it tracks a consistent 90 off on target do to gas path, either the base is not square, or the bore (for lack of better word) of the case is not.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #17 - May 24th, 2018 at 6:13pm
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Seems the important issue for serious shooters is indexing cases not turning the necks. Really doesn't matter if it's off to one direction as long as all of the shots are there and you center them.
  

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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #18 - May 24th, 2018 at 6:59pm
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The issue is easy to delimit in terms of GD&T - geometric dimensioning and tolerancing. 

We are trying to align the axis of the bullet with the axis of the bore.  (coaxiality, loosely called concentric)

To make it happen, the bullet must be introduced into the rifling on the same axis as the bore, otherwise, obviously, it will not be perfectly aligned.

Minimizing clearance around the neck of the cartridge in the chamber, ensuring neck-wall thickness is uniform and other things all help.


  

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JLouis
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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #19 - May 24th, 2018 at 7:34pm
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CW I have a real nice shooting case and might try turning it all though I hate to go through the process of finding another just like it should I take the edge off it.  Some shoot extemely well and some just won't shoot that well at all and are just thrown away.

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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #20 - May 24th, 2018 at 7:53pm
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John, As you already know I have formed and turned a lot of brass in my past. I have also experimented with flash hole size and currently have a project in the works. From my past experience I suggest to eliminate any variables before considering neck turning. If a case is causing different points of impact by indexing every 1/4 turn. What would cause that? Two things come to mind. An off center flash hole, or case walls that are not consistent in thickness, or even an angled flash hole.  Keith
  
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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #21 - May 24th, 2018 at 7:55pm
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JL - I have lots of outside neck turning stuff (mandrels and cutters and 'lathe').  The person who showed me how to use it (on 6ppc) said to trim only the minimum amount.  (The rifle had a .264" dia neck area in the chamber and the finished ctgs were setup so there was 0.001" on the diameter.  I consider that absolute minimum.

One other facet are the Wilson neck sizers - with the inserts sizing just the front half of the neck.  That leaves the area from the middle of the neck down to the juncture with the shoulder at 'full' size.  That I presume would center the assembly in the chamber.
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #22 - May 24th, 2018 at 9:19pm
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JLouis wrote on May 24th, 2018 at 5:08pm:
BobZ being one who has spent countless hours at the range trying prove or disapproved countless and assorted variables to myself to eliminate I have taken a case rotated it a 1/4 turn each shot and it will form a circle around the 25 ring. I have done it so many times over the years and at times just to show someone the effects that I have proven it to hold true to myself beyond any doubt. But it is also if you think about it really meaningless as it only verifies the need for one to index his case if only using just the one. If using multiple cases it then becomes a real big concern all together in that it can and will drop points intead of gaining them. 

JLouis 

What size group do you get shooting in a single position?

I circle the 25 a lot, but turning the case isn't the issue  Roll Eyes
  

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JLouis
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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #23 - May 24th, 2018 at 9:32pm
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Keith thanks for chiming in and I agree with what you noted as being related and I don't think it overly usual to have all three of them taking place in a single case. Back when Jan / Jack Hughes was still shooting his 32-20 CPA using multiple cases I watched him shoot to sort and toss the cases that would not into the recycle bin. And also probably more than some might actually come to realize if they have even heard of such a thing as a bad shooting case until now while breech seating. He is indeed the expert on that subject having shot well over forty 250's in practice if memory serves me right as well as being shot back to back and maybe he will chime and share his findings if not his Ace in hole and one not to be shown. 

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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #24 - May 24th, 2018 at 9:48pm
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Not sure exactly what your asking BobZ but on a nice shooting day when my head is screwed on straight 5/8 inch five shot groups at 200yds.is quite normal for my 28-35SS and just one enlarged hole. 

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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #25 - May 24th, 2018 at 10:05pm
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I carried the practice of numbering cases over from archery, where it was common to find one or two arrows out of a dozen that just would not go where you wanted.

This has eliminated an unexplained flyer more than once.
  
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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #26 - May 24th, 2018 at 10:09pm
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JLouis wrote on May 24th, 2018 at 9:48pm:
Not sure exactly what your asking BobZ but on a nice shooting day when my head is screwed on straight 5/8 inch five shot groups at 200yds.is quite normal for my 28-35SS and just one enlarged hole. 

JLouis

You are saying you have cases that will go from shooting 5/8" to surrounding the 25 just turning the case?
  

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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #27 - May 24th, 2018 at 10:11pm
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Dellet wrote on May 24th, 2018 at 10:05pm:
I carried the practice of numbering cases over from archery, where it was common to find one or two arrows out of a dozen that just would not go where you wanted.

This has eliminated an unexplained flyer more than once.

Wish I could figure out how to sort .22 RF like that  Roll Eyes
  

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JLouis
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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #28 - May 24th, 2018 at 10:35pm
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BobZ I would tend to think it safe to say by rotating the case it enlarges the group by at least two bullet diameters on a nice shooting day for such testing and will clearly form a circle. Going around the 25 ring is more of a visual expression rather than the actual and one used to more easily understand the overall effects. 

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JLouis
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Re: Turning Necks
Reply #29 - May 24th, 2018 at 10:42pm
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In heavy class CBA it is also quite common for a 30BR case to go sour before finishing a match and generally the top competitiors will have three good shooting cases already shot sorted on hand. Not trying to confuse things but just pointing out that a good shooting case can also turn into a not so good shooting case while trying not to get to far off subject.

JLouis
  

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