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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load (Read 12980 times)
JLouis
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #15 - Mar 29th, 2018 at 4:38pm
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Easy enough to check headspace just place an empty case in the chamber and find the appropriate size feeler guauge that just slips with slight resistance between the rim and the breech block and read that distance off the feeler guauge. If the rim of the case goes slightly below the cut in the rim recess just add some scotch to the back of the case and trim it round. Each layer is 1 thousands of an inch thick so it's real easy to do the math. As you would have to add what it takes to get the case flush to face of the tenon and then add that to the reading on the feeler guauge to come up with the total headspace if required. 

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Spud
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #16 - Mar 30th, 2018 at 7:25am
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Just a thought but could the rebounding firing pin found in the Hepburn action combined with the use of large pistol primer have contributed to the primers backing out? I've had Rem 9 1/2 LR primers back out slightly in a .38/55 Hepburn with a moderate smokeless load of SR 4759 but when the same load & bullet is used in a Highwall, the primers don't protrude at all. Cases extracted easily in both rifles.
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emmett22405
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #17 - Mar 30th, 2018 at 10:04am
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Spud --couldnt open the action which caught my attention to the problem--some of the the raised primers were cupping the firing pin and holding it  i had to recock and fire once or twice to free the tip of the pin so the action could open
  
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calledflyer
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #18 - Mar 30th, 2018 at 11:34am
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The plot thickens............................
  
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emmett22405
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #19 - Apr 14th, 2018 at 1:37pm
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Follow up--  was able to insert a 0.013 feeler gauge between chambered case and breech block!!. Panicked and ordered cast breechblock and related parts.  While waiting shot a different box of smokeless 38-55  17 grains of 4227  not a single raised primer!!~ previously shot 16 gr 4227 under 250 grainer  and 17 grains 4759 under a 264 grain cast or duplexed 4 gr 4227 39 gr 2F.  Looks like low pressure, not headspace per se was primarily giving rise to backed out primers.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #20 - Apr 14th, 2018 at 6:43pm
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It's quite typical to leave .010 to .012 for Hunting rifles so there is enough room for dust, dirt and other debris so the breech block will still close. 

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BP
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #21 - Apr 14th, 2018 at 7:29pm
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emmett22405,

Page 139 in the SAAMI link below will give you some numbers for the 38-55 Maximum Cartridge / Minimum Chamber specs that you can compare your brass and Hepbern chamber with.

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bruce moulds
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #22 - Apr 14th, 2018 at 8:04pm
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there are 2 things to consider when headspacing a falling block.
first is the gap between the back of the barrel and the block.
0.005 clearance should allow room for any reasonable fouling, variation in rim thickness, etc.
should rim thickness variation exceed tis, then attention to the front side of the thicker rims is required.
second is the depth of cut of the rim recess in the barrel.
should that place the rear of the case level with the rear of the barre, there will be 0.005 headspace, probably max ideally.
the fact that the block operates at right angles to the axis of bore is probably a plus, as it will tend to wipe grot away.
what is consisered max acceptable headspace?
the rifle in question could well exceed max headspace, taking into account what could go wrong even at black powder pressures.
if the back of the case is level with the back of the barrel, then the chamber is ok, and either the barrel needs to be set back, or a thicker block will solve the problem.
if the rim recess is too deep as well, the the barrel needs to be face off, and then set back to suit.
the problem here is that the sights will then most likely not be top dead centre, so a rechambering will also be necessary as the barrel will need to be set back 1 full turn.
the issues presented by the o.p.will then go away.
low enough pressures will allow the case to slide back in the chamber during firing and after the primer has backed out.
while this might have normal looking primers. the primers can flatten or wrap around the firing pin, gripping it.
higher pressures as with duplex will give enough pressure for the case to grip the chamber walls sufficiently to allow backed out primers.
probably the latter situation is better for accuracy, as the case is not moving as the bullet is leaving it, the gap between the case mouth and the chamber transition is not as variable, and is not excessive, and there is less chance of case seperation in the web area.
if the chamber is an original, it would be a mistake to rechamber with a 45 degree transition reamer so common today for so many reasons.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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craigd
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #23 - Apr 14th, 2018 at 8:53pm
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To me, it would make sense to try to headspace off of the body taper or shoulder if there is one. The hope would be to eliminate whatever point in this reloading process that is making the case smaller than it needs to be for this particular chamber. I'd at least try to hold the case back against block for fire forming, before getting into too much gunsmithing.
  
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bruce moulds
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #24 - Apr 14th, 2018 at 9:16pm
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craig,
the case headspaces off the rim.
holding it back onto the block with a bullet simply induces headspace, and you then need longer brass to avoid a gap between the case mouth and the chamber transition.
with black powder and cast bullets, some of the bullet will bump up into there, or be forced into there other ways - a negative for accuracy, as well as a possible cause of leading.
putting in zigs does not necessarily cure zags.
plus there is the safety factor.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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craigd
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #25 - Apr 15th, 2018 at 12:40am
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Thanks Bruce, I understand and appreciate your comments. I don't have a tiny bit of the experience many of you folks have, but I've always approached it from the thought that all antiques are wildcats, due to seeming tons of variation. I'd never want to shoot an unsafe rifle, but clearly there is too much headspace for the given rim thickness. It's a tough one, if the rifle is otherwise sound, and a little interesting, I just couldn't get myself to set the barrel back. For a project rifle, no big deal. In truth, I've run a pretty fair bit of short 38-55 brass in antique chambers. I definitely do not consistently get top accuracy that can be reported, but plenty good enough to get into the fun shooter interesting territory. Only thoughts Bruce, take care.
  
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bruce moulds
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #26 - Apr 15th, 2018 at 2:58am
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craig,
thinking can only be a good thing.
if the cases were bottleneck, you could headspace off the shoulder.
the problem here is that you are relying on the web more than usual to hold the pressure, and while it is probably ok, you are stretching a friendship.
you might do ok with short brass in an old chamber, as the transition angles in them were lower than the modern 45 degrees, so unsuited to cast bullets.
the bumped up bullet can slide more easily over a lower angled transition.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #27 - Apr 15th, 2018 at 8:45am
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Since the first 20 were basically fine, and if the brass was all sized the same to begin with, it’s possible that with low pressure loads the case was not sealing the chamber. 

This would allow blow back that should be visible on the case. 

It would also make the chamber walls somewhat rough and sticky. Possibly causing the case to be held, allowing the primer to back out farther, and not being re-seated since the case did not move back all the way.

This would make a bit of sense based on round count before the problem started.
  
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #28 - Apr 15th, 2018 at 9:12am
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Possible annealing could help?
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bruce moulds
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Re: Raised primers 38-55 duplexed Hepburn load
Reply #29 - Apr 15th, 2018 at 5:00pm
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backed ou primers etc is not the problem, but rather a symptom.
the problem is excessive headspace.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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