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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing (Read 12851 times)
gunlaker
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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #30 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 11:29am
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Dave, I am using a Russ Weber seater.   

Chris.
  
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JLouis
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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #31 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 1:36pm
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Dave I have also run into chambers that were not reamed straight and you can typically see one land starting to engrave further up the nose than the  rest. That first land touching I feel then pushes the nose of the bullet off and the bullet being as soft as it is then yields to that inherit weakness and thus the bullet cannot fully self straighten itself back to being centered. Not much one can really do about it other than to be sure the bullet is indexed in hopes of consistently duplicating the error form the chamber not being cut central to the bore and the lands would no longer be concentric. 

JLouis
  

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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #32 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 2:24pm
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Schuetzendave wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 12:34pm:
Chris do you know what leade you have in your barrel to get the best match for alignment of the bullet?

.i.e. tapered for no or miminal leade angle versus straight side bullets for a more angle leade.

Only .002" out of alignment causes losses in accuracy.

So if you have a tapered bullet and a wide leade it could tip a bit before being fully inserted into the bore.

Unfortunately we cannot measure the bullet placement in the rifle barrel.

The amount of misalinegment from my replica seater indicates how much accuracy can be lost.


Dave I'm not 100% sure, but CPA says that their throats are tapered over 7/8" for their .32-40 chambers.  I just dug through my chamber casts and that looks about right.  I did notice that the land marks on one side of the throat's chamber cast appear deeper than on the other though so it might be a little crooked.

Chris.
 
  
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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #33 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 4:51pm
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I have always had better accuracy with a none tapered bullet but each rifle and chamber typically has an individual preference only of their own liking.

JLouis
  

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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #34 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 5:03pm
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That is interesting to hear.   I do have one bullet I might be able to try.   My Zischang highwall came with a few original molds that cast a nearly cylindrical bullet.  I haven't looked at them for a while, but if I remember, they taper 0.002" from front to back.

When I bought the rifle I ordered a Hoch 200gr Pope style mold but it didn't fit the bore/groove at all so I switched to my Saeco mold which has a fair bit of taper.  The front couple of bands don't get engraved at all.   

I just remembered while typing this that I also have a Hoch Darr style mold that I haven't tried yet Smiley.   I believe that it is a tapered design too.   

Chris.
  
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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #35 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 6:41pm
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So to corral this back and ask for a bit of clarity or more wisdom--

Hypothetical barrel (all arbitrary set numbers for discussion only)
with
bore .300, groove, .310

If a THROAT was .3105 and one inch long with no taper (basically a freebore) that terminated into a very slight tapered leade into the rifling (allowing the ogive to kiss the bore centering it), freebore having parallel sides, using a parallel sided bullet of .311 diameter (more than a friction fit) and a bullet of one inch in length plus its nose length

Keep up with this as I describe

Neck is 330 diameter (chamber neck) and walls are about .018 in total (.312 plus .018 neck walls) offering .0015 plus in neck relief.

Basically a cartridge in a chamber that the case mouth is the end of the neck chamber region, then a freebore starts for one inch that is .0005 SMALLER than the bullet absolute parallel sided diameter, having the nose of the bullet enter and kiss the rifling with a 1-2 degree taper..... like a plunger in a syringe, all parallel, all more than slightly interference fit and all WATER TIGHT due to bands of the bullet being fully married to the smooth parallel freebore walls (freebore is a bad word for the section but its easy to discern freebore from leade for sake of conversation)

Bullet would be engraved and held perfectly in line with the true bore and would self center, the alignment would be really limited to the casting, not the chamber....

This is NOT an ideal condition (if it were possible) Im assuming. 

It seems the taper in the bullet and throat are all designed (as descried by many in this thread) to offer a three point centering system positioning the nose in the bore and engraving it so it can't move, the rear end is named into a position held concentric with the BORE and SEALED. NO SLUMP POSSIBLE.

Would it be bad if the THROAT as I described above was NOT tapered conventional but was parallel sided and .0005 smaller than the bullet and devoid of rifling (absolute gas seal)??
I understand it may not be POSSIBLE to seat a 1 inch bullet in a steel tube with .0005 engraving on ALL bands at same time (basically a Lymah H&I die sizing effort).
If it were changed to .0002 (if tolerances can be held as such), allowing fairly easy seating, is there another caveat?

Lastly at what point does the bullet become a bore obstruction and does a bottle neck case (like 30-06, etc) cause a greater concern?? Ringing of barrel and chamber??
trying to wrap head around concepts.
  
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Jeff_Schultz
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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #36 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 6:53pm
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Jeff_Schultz wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 9:20pm:
  It doesn't matter.

  

"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo

“There is no situation so bad that it cannot be made worse."

  Confidence- The feeling you get before you fully understand the situation.
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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #37 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 7:52pm
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Considering the thousand or so different combinations that have worked for one fellow or the other, the Schultz solution is, in all probability, the "optimal" throat for breech seating. 
I like the contraction, BS, there is a bit of it here, no doubt. Roll Eyes
  
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JLouis
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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #38 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 8:06pm
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Corerftech the freebore on my 28-35SS is .220 thousands in length is it a plus , or minus I could not tell you. Case is a bottle neck is it a plus a minus again I could not tell you. Bullet fit is almost same as you described is it a plus or a minus and again I could not tell you. But what I can tell you is it shoots extremely well and even more importantly it consistently does so day in, day out and all year long and it is not in the least bit tempermental but a real joy to shoot. But their is also a multitude of other calibers, case choices and chamber designs being used by others that they have chosen to use competitively and they too are doing it with extremely good success. 

JLouis
  

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JLouis
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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #39 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 9:53pm
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If the freebore is larger than than baseband diameter and there are many of those I have seen to date. It then serves no useful purpose in helping to guide the back of the bullet into becoming central to the bore while the nose is trying to accomplish the same. When the bullet is being seated it is also being rotated by the lands at the rate of the barrels twist causing the base of the bullet to rotate off center until it contacts the wall of the oversized freebore that then restricts it from moving off further and at that point it is no longer centered nor are thier any hopes of getting it re-centered. Point being most rely on the nose to to do all of the central to the bore guiding work and never give much thought about the back having to also assist in doing the same task. As Dave pointed out having the seating plug square is indeed important but while the bullet starts to rotate on the plug it will also wonder off in the direction of rotation. If the freebore is not of the proper size to restrain any such movement to help guide it any hopes of the bullet being seated central is then greatly deminished. That is also why I feel a cylindrical bullet shoots better the body of the bullet is aways in contact with the freebore as it moves in. Plus it provides other benefits as well that are not related to the seating process.
Does it really matter who knows but if does not exist or is eliminated I can honestly say nope it don't matter. 

JLouis


« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2018 at 10:07pm by JLouis »  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #40 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 10:35pm
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JL, If you have any .342 diameter bullets of about 215 grs, I would be happy to run a test to compare them to my tapered bullets in the Stevens-Pope.
  

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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #41 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 8:14am
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I also use cylindrical freebore in my chamber designs, as much as 0.200", to help align the bullet with the bore. My non-tapered bullet's shank diameter closely matches the freebore's diameter and my bullets are a slip-fit in the case as I do not want the case to influence the bullet's alignment. I also cam the bullet into the lead about 0.030" when I close the block on my highwall. I get good accuracy and consistency with this setup.
  
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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #42 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 1:58pm
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Schuetzendave,

The breakdown is helpful, thank you.
My term freebore was in my OP defined as NOT being a freebore (I understand that term properly) but more a tubular smooth area larger in OD that the neck region (contemplating a tight fired case fit to neck and enough clearance to float with drag, a bullet in a breach seater dummy case). The area I called freebore was that region like a torpedo tube, having no taper to house a bullet that is a few ten thousandths larger than the area. So in the example, I think I used like .3105 bullet and a .310-+ .0002/- nothing. That would force the bullet to live in a tight fiction fit area with only the nose touching rifling at the ogive based on the leade angle to nose fit. The base of bullet would sit a a traditional distance from the case mouth, per typical BS'ing practice. The idea was not to taper anything except the NOSE contact area. Like an H&I die, the body is precisely ground to a D and then a stem is ground .0001-2 under so there is no chafing, scuffing, it acts like an air bearing but is nearly frictionless. Its impossible for it to be out of alignment, the stem can't tip. 

if a bullet was fit while breach seating to a chamber section with this fit tolerance and the nose was guided to center by that region (assuming a highly concentric cast bullet, sized concentric as well), then taper would not be needed and the gas seal would be very good at time of ignition due to the oversize bullet of .0002 or so, before the bullet launches into the bore/groove which is again .0015 or so smaller than the OD of the BULLET region. So bullet is swaged at time of seating, then again swaged as usual to groove size at firing, sealed the whole way. 

As I typed I visualized an alignment issue that could happen as written above. Assuming the only guidance system for the bullet is the seater, as far as the seater is off axis, so will the bullet be swaged int the chamber (freebore as I described). It could enter LOW/HIGH/LEFT or RIGHT and then be sitting lopsided. It has no triangulation to guide it. If the NOSE is used and a taper (well ground and precise) is added to either , there is a natural compensation for seater misalignments the bullet could wallow to center and in a triangular cavity, it would self center better than I have described.

Hope thats clear what my intent was. Not reinventing the wheel but helping me to visualize breach seating fully and its intrinsic characteristics.
  
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40_Rod
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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #43 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:34am
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I like my throat wet with a little good Bourbon when I do My BSing.

40 Rod
  
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Re: What is the optimal throat design for BS'ing
Reply #44 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 12:48pm
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40-Rod, we need more like you around here. Here's yer attaboy. Smiley
  
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