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Minimum velocity for long range target rifle (Read 11621 times)

Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Feb 19^th, 2018 at 3:57pm	Print Post
	Did the NRA do away with the minimum velocity rules for 800 to 1,000 yard shooting? I do not see it in the BP Target Rifle Rules. I remember everyone having to chrono their rifles to qualify back around the turn of the century. I believe the minimum was 1200 fps.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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nuclearcricket Oldtimer Offline Posts: 824 Joined: Oct 15^th, 2008	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #1 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 4:06pm	Print Post
	That speed sounds about right but I am just taking a guess. Probably the best place to ask would be over on the Shiloh rifle board. The guys there would know. I do remember thinking that the speed requirements were about at the edge of what you could get out of a 45-70 and beyond a 40-65, but I do know of people that compete and win with a 45-70. Sam


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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4479 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #2 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 4:29pm	Print Post
	Definitely nothing in the 55 pages of the NRA rulebook (bring a lawyer!), but there is in the Whittington Center rules (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) which can change from year to year and from range to range apparently. The rules do allow duplex loading so that can help velocity if not accuracy.


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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2612 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #3 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 4:39pm	Print Post
	It's not really an NRA target rifle rule as far as I know, but rather a rule enforced at certain ranges ( maybe only Raton? I've never shot there. ). At the LR matches I've attended at Byers and Ben Avery there is no minimum velocity. If someone was dropping bullets into the pits we'd sure let them know in a hurry though! Chris.


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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4479 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #4 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 4:49pm	Print Post
	It's interesting that a 408 grain 38 has a higher velocity requirement than a 408 grain 40. Do you guys with ballistic calculators have an answer for that?


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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #5 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 4:57pm	Print Post
	Thanks for the replies. My curiosity was raised when I replied to the RKS gain twist question in gunsmithing. I recalled my 2.6 case full of BP was just over the line and although very accurate I would have liked to have a little more steam going to 1,000 yards. I recall BPCR being a straight black event in those days. I think that was a result of the shooters meeting after the LR match at the 125th anniversary of the DCRA in Ottawa in 1993. The English brought their original muzzleloaders it compete against the target rifles and duplex loads used by US and the Canadians. They said if they were going to play this game, it would have to be straight black powder. That seemed reasonable to me

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #6 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 4:59pm	Print Post
	oneatatime wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 4:49pm: It's interesting that a 408 grain 38 has a higher velocity requirement than a 408 grain 40. Do you guys with ballistic calculators have an answer for that? No, I don't, but it would seem that the small heavy bullets are hardly in the spirit of the game.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Ranch13 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 636 Location: East Central Wy. Joined: Jan 20^th, 2018	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #7 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 4:59pm	Print Post
	Velocity requirements aren't any thing governed by the NRA rules, it's an individual range thing. The only places I know of that had that rule was the Whittington Center, and Winnequah. The last couple of times at the nationals, they didn't bother with chronographing loads. It is supposedly for pit safety, but many people including a few match directors question whether it actually works or not.


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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2612 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #8 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 5:08pm	Print Post
	Bob you were just over the minimum with your .45-100!? What powder were you using? With my paper patched rifle I'm well into the mid 1300's using Swiss Fg. I tried it once with Swiss 1.5 and was just over 1420. That's a PP bullet with 100 or 105gr of powder and a 535gr bullet. Even my 45-90's ( 2.4" case ) are in the 1340-1360 range with Swiss 1.5 depending on the powder charge and bullet. Maybe the powder is hotter now? I know that Swiss has a lot more energy than the old Goex stuff. Chris.


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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #9 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 5:11pm	Print Post
	I would agree that it is an individual range issue depending on the pit design. I have seen pits where the only safe way for 1000 yard BP would be to have a cease fire to pull and score

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #10 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 5:13pm	Print Post
	gunlaker wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 5:08pm: Bob you were just over the minimum with your .45-100!? What powder were you using? With my paper patched rifle I'm well into the mid 1300's using Swiss Fg. I tried it once with Swiss 1.5 and was just over 1420. That's a PP bullet with 100 or 105gr of powder and a 535gr bullet. Even my 45-90's ( 2.4" case ) are in the 1340-1360 range with Swiss 1.5 depending on the powder charge and bullet. Maybe the powder is hotter now? I know that Swiss has a lot more energy than the old Goex stuff. Chris. It was GOEX Cartridge in those days. Before Swiss was available here. I think I was shooting a 540 Gr Saeco bullet.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Ranch13 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 636 Location: East Central Wy. Joined: Jan 20^th, 2018	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #11 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 5:47pm	Print Post
	Schuetzenmiester wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 5:11pm: I would agree that it is an individual range issue depending on the pit design. I have seen pits where the only safe way for 1000 yard BP would be to have a cease fire to pull and score With the scoring system in place now, it's much safer for the target pullers hands. Not having to reach above the horizontal center of the target to place the scoring disc is handy, the only real problem is if someone puts a shot just on the paper at the very edge of the target, a bit tricky to get the spot disc up there , if you're vertically challenged.


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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2612 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #12 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 5:54pm	Print Post
	Ah that makes sense. When I first started shooting BP it was about when Cartridge was on its way out. I shot some and had some really good results with it, but it definitely has less umph than Swiss 1.5. When they got rid of Cartridge they replaced it will Goex Express which was pretty decent. I still have a few rounds loaded with that stuff. It was closer to Swiss. I probably have the last of the FFFg Express powder in Canada. I bought it from the BC distributor at his cost as he wanted to get rid of it all. Most of his customers shoot muzzleloaders close up and they didn't want to pay the extra. 58gr of Express FFFg with a Saeco #740 bullet and a pistol primer is still by far the most accurate load at 200m in my Shiloh .40-65. The new Goex Old Eynesford stuff is good. Some batches are hotter than Swiss 1.5, but one batch I have is very slow. Good SD's, at least as good as Swiss 1.5. Chris.


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beltfed Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1826 Location: Central Wi Joined: Dec 20^th, 2007	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #13 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 5:57pm	Print Post
	Top shooters at the Lodi/Winnequa have won and placed highly at the 8,9,1k largely with the 45-70 ctg/pp bullets. Interestingly, yrs ago, Geo Remington shot a score of 141/150 at 1K with his roller 45-70 and greasers. I don't believe this has been beaten yet. Oh, and he did it sitting behind his tall stix. Nowadays the match is only 10 shots for record at each distance. SO, you don't need the "big boy" 45-100s etc to be competitive. And yes, Lodi does still publish the "Raton" caliber, bullet wt, velocity rules in its long range match bulletin. beltfed/arnie


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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Minimum velocity for long range target rifle Reply #14 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 9:38pm	Print Post
	beltfed wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 5:57pm: Top shooters at the Lodi/Winnequa have won and placed highly at the 8,9,1k largely with the 45-70 ctg/pp bullets. Interestingly, yrs ago, Geo Remington shot a score of 141/150 at 1K with his roller 45-70 and greasers. I don't believe this has been beaten yet. Oh, and he did it sitting behind his tall stix. Nowadays the match is only 10 shots for record at each distance. SO, you don't need the "big boy" 45-100s etc to be competitive. And yes, Lodi does still publish the "Raton" caliber, bullet wt, velocity rules in its long range match bulletin. beltfed/arnie From what I have learned on here, PP should be the way to go for LR. Nobody had any idea in the 90s. All the bullets I corresponded with Doc Gunn about were GG. What do you mean by "years ago?" Duplex or BP? 45-70 is all anyone shot when I started. There was no brass any longer except for the spendy, low quality stuff Bertram put out in those days. I always wished we had an accessible 1000 yard range here. I worked on getting access to KD-22 at Ft. Lewis, but finally just gave it up. They are such a PIA to work with military guys were coming to our civilian range to shoot. The neighbors complained about the conveys of camo vehicles and endless noise so we had to put an end to that.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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