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GT
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Paper patched question
Jan 1st, 2018 at 8:23pm
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I had most of a day off today and the temp was a bit brisk +4 for a high, couldn't get interested in projects I had going so it seemed like a good time to start another  Wink   
A while back an 1-1/2" bolt was transformed into a copy of an Ideal adjustable bullet mold for making 45 cal paper patched bullet cores.  It worked well, almost self ejecting, but issues arose with the size adjustment do-hickey... but I didn't concern myself with that.  I planned to make a swaging die for one of the reloading presses, drill a small bleeder hole so the cores after the proper count should/would all weigh the same - or close.  A new ram was needed for the press to allow an adjustable bottom punch - that worked.  I didn't like the top punch I fashioned for the original idea and most of my 45 calibers didn't either, but one did.  Until today, it's generated quite a few PP bullets for that one rifle.  Today a more rounded nose top punch was made, and everything was going good until a brainstorm occurred.  My original bottom punch has a concave base for folding the patch and packing lube in - this has been successful.  My intention for running PP in these rifles is to get a little more velocity, minimizing the leading and fouling and it works.  My thoughts went to bullet design and I made a new bottom punch - it's a rebated boattail.  Has anyone tried this?  Any experience with these at 1000 yds and beyond?  They swage and patch nice, I know according to Litz these bullets won't make the velocity where a boattail is beneficial but they may still help a little in the wind, and long distances.  If anyone else has been down this rabbit hole I'd be interested in your discoveries, either respond or send me a PM.
Thanks, 
Greg
  

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk"  T. A. Edison
"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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Huvius
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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #1 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 11:03pm
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I think you will find that patching just up to the edge of your cylindrical section of your bullet and not beyond will perform most consistently.
Unless you are trimming the patch back after drying.

I would think that twisting the patch tail would be a decent method of patching these boat tails.

Interesting idea for sure.
  
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bruce moulds
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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #2 - Jan 2nd, 2018 at 2:01am
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gt,
i am assuming you are loading with black powder.
that said, most pp things are the same for smokeless and b.p.
you are patching too far forward, as huvius said.
you need the rifling to cut the very front of the patch so it can clear the bullet as soon as is possible.
can we assume you are looking for higher b.c. by using a boattail.
in your case, the boattail is too short to have any real effect.
also the step where it starts will pretty much negate any benefit also.
if using black powder, the boat will most certainly disappear when you light the fire. it will bump up to be a flat base.
can't say on this re smokeless.
some guys have experimented with such things as beeswax sabots to support boattails, but none seem to have been successful.
your bullet will also have increased drag from the step at the nose.
with such a short nose, this might not bump up unough to disappear.
your best way to address higher b.c. is in the nose area,
look at elliptical or money noses for the least drag in the velocity ranges of b.p cartridges. that is transonic and subsonic.
lengthening the ogive will increase b.c.
however a nose longer than 1.5 calibres in a cast bullet will upset so that it will be 1.5 calibres or less on firing.
while on patching, the sharps salesman called frank hyde stopped using tails on patched bullets, just folding the patch over the base leaving about 1/3 diameter of lead exposed.up to today this has offered improved accuracy over the tail, because the hyde patch clears the bullet more readily and deforms the base less.
lube in hollow bases is a waste of time.
it lubes inefficiently if at all, and can introduce a lot of variables in balance and weight.
it can even stick a wad to a bullet which is really bad.
this post is not to be critical in any but a constructive way.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #3 - Jan 2nd, 2018 at 10:55am
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Huvius, Bruce,
Thank you very much for the critique, I am trimming the paper after it dries - seems easier when time is of the essence.  Bruce, by all means be critical, no offense is taken.  When I have more time there are a few things I would like your opinion on.   If time and weather permit this week I hope to load and shoot these and see what the doppler shows.  I am experimenting with propellants that are new to me so the data should be interesting.
Greg
  

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk"  T. A. Edison
"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #4 - Jan 2nd, 2018 at 3:07pm
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What can be achieved with PP and  BP, in this case a groove-dia. PP bullet (.450 naked, .458 patched) launched from a 45-70:
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This with a flat-base bullet, about 520 grs, no twisted tail - just the ends folded over, partially covering the base.  All shooting at 75m (82 yds) with sling, no support.
No lube at all was, used, just a wiping regime between shots.  If lube is required, a thick lube cookie is needed for efficiency.  Contrary to popular opinion, the lube doesn't vaporize, so you do need as much lube in contact with the bore as possible.  However, for target shooting, no lube is needed provided you wipe between shots.
FWIW, I also shoot PP in military rifle with blowtubing only - and yes, it also does work.
  
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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #5 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 1:29pm
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Finally, a day with temps in the 40's, had a window in work load and the wind went down- about dark.  I shot the diapered bullets I swaged and a few of similar weight and design grease grooved for comparison - each using the LabRadar.   I didn't have enough time (before dark) or ammo to get data for a solid conviction but the results were very interesting.   
First, because of a mention on this forum about the use of BH209 powder for larger cartridges this was the propellant I chose.  The cartridge is a 45-110, the rifle is an original Borchardt that got a new barrel.  Besides the low light issue, (overcast and darkness coming) I had to improvise and make a front sight that would fit the larger dovetail- just a straight post .060" wide.  The groups at 200 yards were all fairly uniform, about 3 minutes. 
All the loads were reasonably close and the SD for all three configurations averaged 12 fps.
The real interesting results:
- the grease grooved bullets had a BC - muzzle to 100 yds. calculated at .275, 100 to 200 yds. was .270.
-the cup base swaged PP had a BC of .286 consistent throughout.
-the boat tail, swaged PP had a BC muzzle to 100 yds. of .288 and from 100 to 200 yds. the BC calculated to be .317 –  All of these were averages but they were consistent.   This configuration will be my focus if I share anymore findings.  I plan to change the shape and length of the boat tail bottom punch to see what effect this has.   
The powder mfg. recommended a card over charge and in my samples, I had loads both ways with no change noticeable.  My alloy was pure lead in both swaged bullets (for ease of action) the GG was a 16:1.   I am working on a means of collecting the projectile with minimal distortion, Mann’s method of oiled sawdust is next, I’m thinking it would take considerable ballistics jell to catch this projectile, but it is an option.  Any suggestions/experience?
The density altitude at the time placed speed of sound at 1095 fps. so according to the recordings my load never went trans/sub-sonic.  MV for all three loadings averaged 1532 fps. and TV was 1200 fps.
In the next step of this collection, it will be interesting to see what these projectiles do at trans and sub sonic levels.  I doubt the radar will give clean data much beyond 200 – the SNR, or sound to noise ratio was becoming slightly erratic at 180 yds.  Opinions on reducing/changing the charge to have the bullet originate just above this barrier would be welcome.
  

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk"  T. A. Edison
"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #6 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 1:32pm
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I’ve read of several studies on different bases on cast and swaged bullets, a few on this forum.  I may be flogging a dead horse for some - most comments following the study stated that the benefits over a flat square cornered base didn’t justify the efforts.   
My experimentation is due to the fact that I have a means of collecting data, actual flight data, not just calculated data, and my real hidden agenda is working a load up for a mile match.
More to follow?
Greg
  

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk"  T. A. Edison
"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #7 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 2:58pm
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"your best way to address higher b.c. is in the nose area,
look at elliptical or money noses for the least drag in the velocity ranges of b.p cartridges. that is transonic and subsonic.
lengthening the ogive will increase b.c.
however a nose longer than 1.5 calibres in a cast bullet will upset so that it will be 1.5 calibres or less on firing."

Bruce, 
I'm not in pursuit of extreme BC's,  I have dabbled in the elliptical and money noses, in fact there is a drawer full of these punches in my swaging die organizer.  I went down this avenue already, from small truncated to nose lengths congruent with Pinocchio.  In my experiments, most, not all became unstable  at 800+.  The heel and yaw showed up on paper screens consistently.  At 1000 many destabilized completely, giving the bumble bee effect I appropriately named. (they sound like it and you don't what flower they'll land on).  There is one bullet mold that I have matching your descriptions that is very consistent to 1500, it is a single groove 600 grain that Walt made me, but the reaction (recoil) isn't where I want to be in this particular rifle.  My round nose, about 1.1 caliber in length, and the ogive=4 nose diameter - gave more consistent results.   I have a testing area now that exceeds a mile, I plan to build frames for mats, but there is a distance to go yet.   
Greg
  

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk"  T. A. Edison
"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #8 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:42pm
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If ellipitcal and money-nose bullets are becoming unstable , that's probably because of the alloy - pure lead and long noses don't fare well together.  16:1 alloy and a money nose is a proven performer - and already was in the golden days of BP LR shooting.
  
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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #9 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 3:31pm
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greg,
two things are required for a long range bullet.
one is that it can hold good verticle, which means consistent muzzle velocities and consistent b.c.
kenny wasserburger reports holding 1 moa vert at i mile with black powder and pp bullets.
the other is minimizing wind deflection as much as possible, simply done by using the highest b.c. possible, and maintaing good bullet stability.
the brits used antimonial alloy in their bullets, and the americans used alloys from 11:1 to 14:1.
in both cases this was done to maintain nose shape and length.
if the nose sets back and stays straight, a b.c. loss occurrs, but if it sets back off centre, that comes with introduced instability which comes with a lowering of b.c. as well due to yawing, or even full tipping of the bullet.
i have never shot past 1000 yds, but have found that a stability factor of 1.8 to 2.0 is optimum, due to wind shear effects, and possibly spin decay.
in the transonic zone, the money nose and the elliptical require similar comeups for the same muzzle velocities, while subsonic ellipticals have less drop than similar moneys.
velocity/trajectory figures suggest a b.c of around 0.5.
12:1 has less drop at 1000 yds by roughly 2 moa than 16:1, and similar figures comparing 16 and 20:1.
cast bullets cannot maintain a nose length of more than 1.5 calibres, so this is what we have to work with.
i have never had a bullet tumble, but some really long 40 cals have demonstrated  slightly elongated holes at 600 to 700 yds, going back to round holes after that.
the little step at the rear of your noses will move your centre of pressure forward, causing a greater overturning moment, and requiring a shorter bullet for the same twist than one with a smooth transition from the shank to the ogive.
good luck with your experiments. please keep us in touch.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #10 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 4:57pm
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That is a heck of a mould there . And from a bolt no doubt.....



JMH
  
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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #11 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 9:01pm
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GT,
What is the length and Wt range of these current bullets?

AND What is the twist of the new barrel on that Borchardt?
It may be that you would do better for accuracy with a longer/heavier bullet  if it is say an 18 twist. That is the experience in the BPCR /BPTR game
beltfed/arnie

  
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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #12 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 12:04pm
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beltfed wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 9:01pm:
GT,
What is the length and Wt range of these current bullets?

AND What is the twist of the new barrel on that Borchardt?
It may be that you would do better for accuracy with a longer/heavier bullet  if it is say an 18 twist. That is the experience in the BPCR /BPTR game
beltfed/arnie


Beltfed/arnie
First off, the barrel is a take-off of a popular Mfg. a re-barrel job I did for a guy 20-25 years ago, never saw a round through it.  I got tired of it taking up space and saw a place for it, the draw back was originally - after delving into it -  was in fact the twist.  I made a fixture that measures twist and uniformity of the twist - this is a button rifled barrel and for the average, the twist is about 1 in 21.5".   
The bullets I'm shooting in it have a length of 1.11" weigh in at about 402g, placing the stability factor in the neighborhood of 2.9 at my current MV of 1520 fps - if I did my calculation right? 

Bruce, 
this is out of the optimum desired range but I'm going to change the top and bottom punch configuration and do a little more experimenting.  I'm going to stay with the current alloy for a while, and only change one thing at a time.  I have some screens made -next stretch of good weather and free time I hope to send a few down range.
JHM, 
The mold was a 1-1/2" bolt, it has a lot of mass to it and it is grade 8.  I wouldn't recommend using this as primary source for molds, but I have a 30 gallon can of them and it sounded like a good idea at the time.  It casts and drops the cores fairly well once it's hot.
Greg
  

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk"  T. A. Edison
"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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Re: Paper patched question
Reply #13 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 2:44pm
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GT,
So, you are in the bullet length range for that 21.5" twist
though, I think you could go longer:  The 45 Gov't used a 22" twist and stabilized a 500 gr RN, 1.32" long even at long range.
I have had good accuracy out of my TD/22" twist with that 500 gr Govt bullet.
Not saying the shorter 1.1" /400gr bullets won't shoot well.
beltfed/arnie
  
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