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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question (Read 11932 times)
rodneys
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #15 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 8:40pm
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Fog an if you are interested I can cast you some of the bullets out of my 451 mold to try. They wroked as fixed ammo in my creedmoor. Although I ended up using paper patch bullets with paper on at .451 diameter and 540 grain.
  
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waterman
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #16 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 2:21am
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Since you are into the Creedmoor for a bunch of $ and have made the chamber cast, you might as well have RMC make you some proper sized cartridge cases.  Time to learn about paper patched bullets.

How about posting some photos of your rifle, please.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #17 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 10:09am
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bruce moulds wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 4:45pm:
vall,
it sounds like you have an original in original condition.
thank you for finding a way to keep it that way!.
breech seating allows this while having excellent accuracy.
too many of these old rifles have been buggered up by altering chambers - done through ignorance, but buggered nonethe less.
and people who do this continue to insist their rifles are "original".
keep safe,
bruce.


Yes it is an original, and I agree that too many people bastardize chambers on these old guns! I had Jerry Clease make me a gorgeous breech seating tool which works better than any tool I've ever used. I also opened up the base band on a 180 gr. 8mm mold to .329" and it fits well. Haven't shot it with the new bullet from that mold, but will be doing so next week!
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #18 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 10:12am
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Just a note here. I'd never depend on dial calipers for determining bullet size, or groove diameter. Need a micrometer to accurately determine such things in my opinion.
  

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Fogman
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #19 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 1:36pm
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Waterman - I have paper patched 50-140's for a friend of mine and some 45-110's for myself. I will want to pp the 44-77 certainly. 
Some pictures will follow in a day or two.
  
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bruce moulds
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #20 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 7:09pm
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fogman,
congratulations on the interesting journey you are about to undertake.
you will find it most interesting, and will unlock much of historical interest if you go the full mile.
it is now known that later in the era, long range rifles were often, though not necessarily, breech seated.
this was found to do the same thing as muzzle loading, but easier. harry pope went through the same process in scheutzen.
those rifles were designed for bore diameter pp bullets, and were the peak of that technology. as such, they work best with them.
they will also work well with fixed ammo.
there is a discussion on the Shiloh forum about breech seating creedmoor rifles, which also goes into internal dimensions of Remington 44 barrels.
it appears that 44 is a fairly flexible term, with many of them being what we might now think of as tight 45 cals.
it is just a matter of using reasonably thin paper and a correctly sized bullet.
I envy you the opportunity you are embracing.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #21 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 7:20pm
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My original #7 Ballard Long range Creedmoor rifle is in .44-100 Ballard, and it slugs to .451" also. When I got it I looked in Cartridges of the World and got bad info saying it used a .445" bullet. But fortunately one of the members here (rustyrelyx) confirmed that the .451" bore was indeed correct for my #7 Ballard.
I think the old rifles varied a whole lot in bore size, but I also think they are consistently larger than we'd expect for some calibers.
  

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Fogman
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #22 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 7:39pm
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All - thanks for the encouragement - I will keep you posted with pics and range results on this original. I have been reading the Shiloh 44-77 thread too. I have some experience with my black powder Shiloh Sharps and I really enjoy using black powder. I just started with local silhouette match shooting which I am addicted to after only twice. So I am looking forward to seeing what this original is capable of in the way they were designed to be used. Breech seating, paper patch -fine; I think a complete original Creedmoor in this good of condition deserves to be shot as it was designed to be shot. Y'all don't go away - I will probably have some questions as I get into this project.
  
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bruce moulds
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #23 - Jul 7th, 2017 at 8:58am
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fogman,
yes please keep us posted.
any info will be gratefully received.
if you see any writings by zack taylor aka desert deuce, he has a lot of knowledge on the old remington chamber and bore dimensions.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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BudHyett
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #24 - Jul 7th, 2017 at 5:15pm
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Do not use .458 bullets. The bore diameter you have is correct; this is .451 at the bottom of the lands. 
 
There is an old Lyman mold, 451114, made for this cartridge. The original loading was paper-patch and this was the offering for a lubed groove bullet. The mold was offered in various lengths for weight, I have the mold for 480 grains which I have used to paper-patch for .45-70.

You might also look at heavier revolver bullets, 300 grain and up, for the .454 Casull and .460 S&W pistol cartridges. This choice is if you want to only fire it at short range and not compete.

(I could be persuaded to part with this mold as the neurosurgeon has limited my shooting due to recoil after extensive neck surgery. He even offered to give my Sharps a good home at his cabin in Alaska.)
« Last Edit: Jul 8th, 2017 at 3:40am by BudHyett »  

Country boy from Illinois living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Fogman
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #25 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 9:02am
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"Fogman if you are interested I can cast you some of the bullets out of my 451 mold to try. They worked as fixed ammo in my Creedmoor. Although I ended up using paper patch bullets with paper on at .451 diameter and 540 grain."

I would appreciate a few - I will gladly pay the postage. I have some grease groove .446 for my Shiloh that I will try to pp up to a larger diameter just to fire form the cases until I get some .451 bullets. The case diameter from my chamber cast is .530 at the base and .474 at the neck. Pretty big I think. The Shiloh 44-77 cases are .514 and .462 at the same points. All I have read so far is about the bore diameters being larger on the older rifles but nothing about the actual case diameters. Length-wise the casting shows an exact 44-77 but diameter-wise it is different from anything I see in Cartridges of the World. I will get to the range sometime this coming week and shoot it.
  
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Yellowhouse
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #26 - Jul 12th, 2017 at 11:53pm
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Holy criminy!  That rifle is at spec for the period and for PPB!  Back then the caliber was still measured by British Standards.  Look at the old catalogs....the mention bore!  So if my own 44/77 measures 451 groove and .445ish bore I'm just as happy as can be.  These rifles were designed to shoot PPB....not greasers and they shot them well.  I bet this one will too if you'll feed it the right groceries.
  
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Fogman
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #27 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 11:48am
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Some pics of my Creedmoor. I can load pp bullets seated to about 1/8" like they did back then to make a 44-77 a 44-90. I will take it to the range next week and see how it does.
  
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #28 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 12:43pm
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In my travels and adventures I have found that in Creedmore Ballards and Remington rolling blocks .451 is the correct size and your rifle bore was not fooled with. 
You can get a mold at .451 for that muzzle loading rifle Gibbs or something that is currently being made. Maybe Dixie or somebody like that. Cheap experiment.
   Don
  
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SSShooter
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Re: Rolling Block Creedmoor bore diameter question
Reply #29 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 2:47pm
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Nice rifle.
Have you spoken to Tom Klinger (an infrequent poster here)? He has an original (two? - I've forgotten) Creedmoor Rolling Block, if memory serves. He has been shooting his for a number of years with good success and may be able to help you with loads, etc. I know he shoots both PP and greasers.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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