I am starting a new thread rather than clutter up thread "Loading the Hepburn 40/65 ?" What caught my attention in that thread is Bruce Moulds statement "QUOTE:....in original form they shot well and reliably, even dirty, and were much respected. They used bore or bore plus a little paper patched bullets, and were set up to do this with maximum efficiency." 

Question: What is it about these old single shot BP rifles and bore diameter paper-patched, black powder loads that provided superior performance during "dirty shooting"??

What have I been missing??

Why do I ask? One of my decades long activities is finding black powder loads (fixed loads) that will give excellent groups for 10-50 shots from 0,40 to 0,44 caliber rifles, even to 300-500Ms, with no attention to bore (blow tubes, wiping). Techniques for this have been demonstrated by John Kort for 44-40 BP loads using original Ideal 427098" soft lead bullets, Swiss FFg powder and SPG lube -- distances were up to 300M for 10 BPCR pigs. I have had enough success with 40-65 and 350-400gr bullets, SPG lube, Swiss FFg or 1,5Fg powder to get occasional 10 pigs in BPCR, with many more 7s-9s on pigs and rams (all with no wiping or blowtubing for up to 15 shots). Currently I am using 0,409" or 0,410" bullets, 20-1 Pb-Sn bullets with SPG, 50-60gr Swiss FFg or 1,5Fg, fiber and LDPE wads, bullets seated out to touch rear of rifling, slip-fit into fireformed cases, Rem 2 1/2 primers. Rifle bore is 0,4095".

Thanks,
Grisen



 

westerner wrote on Jul 19^th, 2016 at 8:22pm:


I wipe between shots when I shoot my black powder rifles also!

Terry

I'm shooting grease groove bullets with SPG Lube.

Terry

Tried Goex Old Ensford 3F once, everything same as with Swiss FFg and SPG. It only went 13 shots with 50 gr powder over 300gr bullet and was already scattering badly enough to easily miss pigs at 300m. Had hard powder nearly full length of 28" barrel, plus lead fouling on hard powder fouling. Took more than hour to get all the hard fouling and leading out. NEVER AGAIN!!

That Goex DID NOT have softer, moister powder fouling than Swiss!! Have to see if I can find a Goex Lover to give it to.

Only shot BPCR once on 90F day -- my Swiss and SPG loads continued to go 15 shots all day, no problem with powder fouling. Ditto for cold dry days.

Grisen

westerner wrote on Jul 19^th, 2016 at 10:26pm:


For me at BPCR matches, shooting "dirty" lets me focus entirely on shooting. I need that!

For Cowboy Action shoot  (which I have not done for years now) it let me shoot entire 6-stage match without needing to clean rifle barrel -- or miss shots. Ditto for Ruger 44-40 revolvers.

Grisen

svartkruttgris#369 wrote on Jul 19^th, 2016 at 10:54pm:


I may be wrong but, I don't think anyone who is winning BPCR or Sillhouette Matches is shooting Dirty.....

Terry

shovel80 wrote on Jul 19^th, 2016 at 11:00pm:


As far as I know, you are correct. I remain at least 15 hits away from being a match winner. So, no pressure

Grisen

In order to shoot dirty successfully, IMO you'll need a combination of the following:
- a heavy bullet for the powder charge used (in order to up pressure and get a clean burn)
- a reduced quantity of powder
- a very good lube, and enough of it
- a bullet seated off the rifling, sub-groove diameter.
- a clean-burning powder (or should that be moist-burning?)
- a larger bore (the bigger the calibre the more room for fouling)

Which is why a round like 44-40 works well.  bullet/powder weight ratio would be a good indicator to start with - but by no means the only element.  6/1 would probably close to the minimum, anything higher would be better.  Meaning, less powder, more pressure = less fouling.
And something like Lancaster oval bore or Metford segmental rifling would also help...