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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Lead? (Read 28996 times)
MT Chambers
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Re: Lead?
Reply #30 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 11:25pm
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Yeah, so what, what does that Lilly guy know about barrels anyways?
  
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desert-dude
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Re: Lead?
Reply #31 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 11:37pm
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A car in the shop is always a bummer. Dead cars don't push very well either. Wink

Anyone remember the "Myth Busters" where they shot into water?
The slugs didn't go very far which implies pretty high G forces during deceleration.
Anyone with a swimming pool in the country can test this. In the city neighbors tend
to get upset. Wink
Start with pure lead and work up to reasonable hardness. How you separate slump
from acceleration in the barrel and decel in the water I really don't know but it would
make an interesting experiment. The forces for + accel and - accel are probably close
since the distances are similar. Someone smarter than I need to calculate the force and
see if it exceeds the yield strength of the bullet. At least in the barrel the diameter is constrained; not so in the water. 
Something to do in your spare time.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Lead?
Reply #32 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 12:06am
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Damn near impossible to have a real constructive converstaion here anymore now that Comic Central feels the need to take over. But its more disappointing to see those who might really care to learn sit back in silence and simply watch it happen.

JLouis
  

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argie1891
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Re: Lead?
Reply #33 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 2:39am
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car got picked up at closing time so I hope to hit the range tomorrow. I lubed 3 grooves on 25 bullets and 6 on the other 25 all hoch 195 gr. 32 caliber, and am planning on doing a little test to see how much if any difference different amounts of lube makes a difference.  only problem is tomorrow wind is supposed to be 10 to 20 mph. I plan on shooting anyway as I need to shoot in all conditions and if I wait for the perfect day   will if I wait for the  perfect day I would wind up watching orpra  on tv instead of shooting. and one more thing the car was in for a recall so I didn't have to spend gun money on it. wife had to use my car to go to work but tomorrow I am a free man to go or stay as I choose  and I choose to go.
  

if you think you have it figured out  then you just dont understand
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beltfed
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Re: Lead?
Reply #34 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 11:33am
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Re. Bullet slump:
On the Shiloh Sharps forum website , Kurt has done a LOT
of bullet slump testing. (Of course in winter) He shoots into
snow banks he builds up at his range. In spring, he recovers bullets for examination and measurement.
I have seen some of them.  One can look at things such as shortening, muzzle slump by looking at the rifling groove uniformity and extent of the rifling onto the ogive,etc
beltfed/arnie
  
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beltfed
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Re: Lead?
Reply #35 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 11:34am
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Oh, again re bullet catching. I recall some people catch bullets in oiled sawdust
beltfed/arnie
  
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JLouis
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Re: Lead?
Reply #36 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 5:00pm
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Joe how did the shooting go today and how did your lube groove experiment workout?

JLouis
  

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bruce moulds
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Re: Lead?
Reply #37 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 6:28pm
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nose slump can be detected in at least 2 ways.
most recovered bullets are damaged in some way and have their shapes modified somewhat. however, the noses are usually still visible, and rifling marks in them indicate that they have bumped up.
not sure how much this happens with smokeless, but with black it is an issue that causes more unnoticed accuracy problems than some realize.
these noses, forced into the rifling, are unlubricated, and as such are a sources of led and friction.
this is minimized when blowtubing because for all but the first shot the barrel is lubricated, but when wiping is a problem.
paper patching will prevent this.
even 16:1 will bump into the rifling.
in the old days, the only long nosed bullets were of pp design.
greasers were more like the pope style bullets, or 44/40, with 
short noses less susceptible to such problems.
another indicator of nose slump is long range sight settings.
going from 20: 1 to 16:1 requires about 2 points less comeup at longer ranges.
suspected reason is that the nose of the harder bullet retains a lower drag shape due to less slumping back.
the old dead guys used alloys like 12:1 for long range bullets to retain higher b.c. by minimizing nose slump.
these were patched to bore, and still bumped up enough to take the rifling well.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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JLouis
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Re: Lead?
Reply #38 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 6:56pm
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Good information and thanks for sharing those findings. It has more ill effects than most realize or care to but they will always remain and not simply go away. But they can be managed as was also pointed out.

JLouis
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Lead?
Reply #39 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 7:17pm
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Bruce, would a half wheel weight and half lead Lyman 457125 be hard enough to prevent nose slumping?
  

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JLouis
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Re: Lead?
Reply #40 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 7:50pm
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Bob not trying to butt in in front of Boomer and I am really anxious to hear his relpy.
I spent a year doing just that adding a little antimony and a little there but I just could not get anything consistent out of the multiple of varibles I tried. Dan Theodore had a majic recipe that he developed as well but it just didn't pan out for me and more so for my match winning rifle being used for my testing.

Excuse me Boomer did not mean to butt in and hopeful you may have better news.

JLouis
  

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7groove
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Re: Lead?
Reply #41 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 8:10pm
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Slug guns made by Horace Warner and others used a swaged two peice paper patch bullet. The bearing section was soft lead while the ogive, ofen near spitzer style, was of a harder lead alloy which reduced nose form deformation.
  
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argie1891
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Re: Lead?
Reply #42 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 8:16pm
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pasted from above Joe how did the shooting go today and how did your lube groove experiment workout?

JLouis 
I did shoot groups today but it was fairly windy so really didn't learn a lot  I lubed 3 grooves on 25 and 6 groove on another 25. I only shot 4 groups and the results were too close to call. there was almost no difference. I want to repeat when the wind is a bit calmer. the ones with 3 grooves lubed was just a little smaller but I hesitate to make any judgment from that. even if there were a huge difference all it would prove is that in my rifle on this day one was better than the other. I need to shoot many more groups to really mean anything. I do know that in fixed ammo I get fewer flyers with only a couple grooves lubed. I know of one shooter who has shot many groups without lube and he says he gets no leading. haven't seen it myself and don't want to lead up a rifle to prove him right or wrong. joe g.
  

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JLouis
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Re: Lead?
Reply #43 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 9:05pm
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Thanks Joe me and my shooting Buddy also went out today and the conditions were quite similar. I have been working with a new powder I have not yet seen used but seems to be very promising. Another 20 twenty to thirty 10 shot 200yd. ASSRA score targets should start giving me a taste compared to what I currently use. I was only able to squeak two 249's and a 247 today. One 249 and the 247 were shot with the new powder and the other 249 with my regular powder for the sake of comparison. But to draw any conclusions after only three outings with the new powder at this point in time is just to close to call so the experiment goes on.
Rifle used my FBW Model J 28-35SS Traditional Rifle by design only and please keep me informed on your progress it is extremely interesting to me and I trully hope to learn from it.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2016 at 9:11pm by JLouis »  

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shovel80
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Re: Lead?
Reply #44 - Jun 23rd, 2016 at 10:17pm
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7groove,

Were the two alloy bullets always swaged? Was there ever anyone doing the same with a mold? 

Terry
  

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