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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Lead? (Read 28983 times)
SSShooter
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Re: Lead?
Reply #15 - Jun 21st, 2016 at 7:56am
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Sounds like 20-1 will be a good place to start with my NOE 32cal 'group buy' 2-cavity mold for the 32-40. Will find out this fall.
  

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JackHughs
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Re: Lead?
Reply #16 - Jun 21st, 2016 at 5:29pm
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JS47 wrote on Jun 21st, 2016 at 12:22am:
I don't like to butt in but, I had to try it.  I brought a piece of chrome moly barrel up to a mirror shine and rubbed an old, used bore brush lengthwise along it pretty aggressively.  It did leave some scratches but they were very light and shallow.  A new bore brush was tried on another section with the same results.  I then put some JB Bore Paste on a patch and rubbed it vigorously on another area.  All it did was make the shine shinier. The JB wouldn't remove the previously made scratches.  I don't know what conclusions to draw other than that it looks like it would take a whole lot of scrubbing with a bronze bore brush to induce any measurable change in the bore and that the scratches are so shallow that they probably don't cause any problems.  Others may  disagree Smiley.

JS 


Here's what Dan Lilja has to say about bronze brushes.
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

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Re: Lead?
Reply #17 - Jun 21st, 2016 at 9:44pm
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Jack, Thanks for posting the Dan Lilja article---Fritz
  
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Jeff_Schultz
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Re: Lead?
Reply #18 - Jun 21st, 2016 at 9:49pm
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  Yes, thank you very much! Now I will admit that I use one whenever I feel like it, and have for years.
  

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argie1891
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Re: Lead?
Reply #19 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 1:44am
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I have been casting and shooting bullets for almost 40 years. so far I have found that there are more theories  about what happens with a bullet when the rifle is fired than their are fleas on a hound dogs back. how do you know the nose slumps?? how do we prove it does or does not I have shot thousands of bullets from wheel weight and linotype metal and just haven't seen the problem. I cant say for sure it doesn't happen, but I really think that if it does the support of breach seating would actually lessen the slump. now I am new to this game and really have a lot to learn. I think the reason to use soft bullets is with linotype it would be pretty hard to seat the bullet might take a hammer drive the bullet into the lands. I can say from experience that there have been some really small groups fired with simi pointed bullets. it is my guess that the reason pointed bullets cause problems is because less of the bullet is supported during its trip down the barrel.   as far as what I read on the forums there is one site I read that stated paper towels would wear out a good barrel in short order as it had silica in it. I asked the writer to tell me how long it took him to even take the blue off a barrel and didn't get a reply. 
please forgive me as I do not intend to insult anyone all I can go on is my experience, and I have very little with breach seating. I can tell you that I have ben able to shoot more consistently with breach seating that fix ammo. fewer flyers easier to shoot 2 3 or more groups of around the same size. wish I had know about it before I was an old guy.
  

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argie1891
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Re: Lead?
Reply #20 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 2:09am
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I need to ask another question.. how many lube grooves do you put lube in?? I have been running by bullets into my Lyman lubra sizer using a .325 die and lubing just the bottom 2 grooves. so actually I am not sizing at all as the bullets are less than the size die. again I am going from my experience of shooting fixed ammo. I have found that too much lube is more of a problem than too little. but that may or may not apply to breach seating. I am not getting any leading so I haven't worried about it. just wondering what the match winners are doing.  I have been using soft lube again as it is what has worked well for me in the past.  thanks joe argie1891
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Lead?
Reply #21 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 2:44am
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Joe,
I think you have a pretty good handle on how bullets work and you now know the benefits of BSing.

Personally, I've shot 2% tin in WW's and had no problems at all. I used it in my BSed loads for my 45/70, because it was so hungry for lead and the WW was free.

Because tin makes bullets cast so well, I wouldn't shoot any alloy w/o it.

All my schuetzen bullets that I shoot in matches are spitzers and I cast them in 22/1. I use that alloy, souly because I get 2 more pounds of bullets for my 1lb of tin. I did only one test with 16/1 and found no real difference in accuracy (22/1 edged out 16/1) so, I stick with the 22/1.

Lino can be BSed but, the throat has to have at least 1/8" freebore and the bullet should have at least .002 taper.

Back in the 90's, when CBA first started their Unrestricked Class, I shot the 323471, BSed in my 15 twist Clerke HW. The 323471 was cast in #2 alloy. It's not tapered but, I was still able to seat it with 1/8" freebore and a 1 deg leade. No leading at 2150 fps but, I've never had a barrel lead, using a GC.

Regarding lube grooves, I do not know if any test have been done in our sport. Everyone that I shoot with fill all grooves. All the guy's that have shot 1240+ score, fill all of them.

We mostly pan lube and it's easier to fill them all doing it that way, too. You might be able to add some info about that. Cast 20 - 50 of each, partial and all lube grooves and report back.

Frank
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Lead?
Reply #22 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 7:42am
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I think Barry Darr has done some experimentation on this. If my memory is correct many of the high-performance Darr-Borton bullets were spitzers designed for harder alloys at higher velocities, and with fewer and smaller grease grooves.  
In our game many of the items and procedures we use are more for "in-the-spirit-of" traditional-ness then in maximum efficiency and accuracy.  Just the fact that we choose to restrict ourselves to antique single-shots or copies and modern versions thereof is indication that we have collectively chosen to limit our competition for traditional purposes.


I think that long nosed spitzers with unsupported nosed have been documented by water-recovered fired bullets to show a degree of slumpage  depending on velocity and how high the pure lead percentage is. 

One added comment. as bullet size and mass goes up the impact of some things that effect accuracy have less impact to a degree.   When comparing a 45-70 or other long range cartridge, to a "quarter-bore" a lot of the finicky little details are overwhelmed by the mass.    IN some areas it can make finding direct analogies between the big-bore and small-bore cartridges a bit confusing
« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2016 at 7:50am by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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40_Rod
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Re: Lead?
Reply #23 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 9:58am
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It’s pretty easy to tell if you have enough lube on your bullets. Shoot a few shots and look at the muzzle of your barrel. Do you have a lube star? Good you have enough lube. 

40 Rod
  
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JLouis
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Re: Lead?
Reply #24 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 10:40am
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Joe I fiil all the grooves on the bullet and they need to remain equally full to try and maintain the balance bullet. I have not tried lubing less so I cannot honestly say if I think it makes a differance. Barry designed a three groove 32 Spitzer the #36 with three lube grooves that became very popular. I do not believe the lube is compressible but I could be wrong and if not the unlubes grooves would become larger in diameter when filling the grooves and possibly cause a slight inbalance to the bullet. DW Barry did indeed perform catch box tests and found nose slumps from 5 to 12 thousandths. They were not caught in water another material was used in his catch box for clarification only. Unfortunatly do to some memory loss I am not sure if he tested unlubed grooves and so I cannot honestly comment in that regard. I do know the bullets caught were shorter in length a result from the bullet filling the grooves / the accordian effect that was directly related to the nose slump. The smaller the lube grooves are and the less number of the less the accordian effect. I mention this as I am not sure if any unlubed grooves would also directly pertain to this.

DW is indeed correct in that the grooves got smaller and the number reduced his #36 being a prime example and probably the most popular for serious target work. He also continued to make a variety of bullets in the more traditional design.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2016 at 10:51am by JLouis »  

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argie1891
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Re: Lead?
Reply #25 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 12:24pm
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I cant imagine a media you could shoot a bullet into that would not deform the bullet. maybe shooting and catching a bullet as it runs out of steam just before hitting the ground. I still maintain there is a lot more theory than fact as far cast bullets go. i can say for me long heavy bullets with a large bearing surface seem to shoot best.
  

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JLouis
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Re: Lead?
Reply #26 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 2:21pm
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Joe I understand how you feel about theory, being to able catch undamged bullets for inspection if one beleaves Dr. Mann's experiments to hold any truth has been done quite succesfully not only by him but several others over the years. For myself to have confidence in one's findings on the subject he would first have to be qualified and have the backgound to properly perform such tests of which Barry is more than qualified. Me personaly I don't think of it as it just being theory but thats just me and my opinion by knowing him and his background probably more than most others. 

Just my opinion nothing more and no ill will intended.

JLouis

  

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JLouis
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Re: Lead?
Reply #27 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 3:06pm
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Joe I tend to agree with you on the long bearing surface it seems I have achieved better results with a cylindrical bullets that typicaly have a similar surface. But I have also had good success with other types and without having a controlled enviroment for testing its really hard to tell. I have noticed some being more influenced than others by the wind conditions when those that should not actualy end up being the ones that are. They all seem to vary to some degree dependant on the day and often times the results are just the opposite with the conditions relatively the same. I try to pick the one that seems to be the most consitent and seems to provide the best results and try to make it better. If it won't get me where I want it to go after exhasting all efforts I will move on with the one that started the closest to it and repeat the process. I have personally found by the above mentioned in regards to different days different results and swithing back and forth between the two I just end up chasing my tail and never catch it.

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Re: Lead?
Reply #28 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 4:15pm
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I think the hardness of the alloy has a lot to do with things like bullet slump. I am not saying it cant or dosent happen just that I don't think it is much of a problem. we sometimes worry about the things we cant change. I personally think uniformity of the bullet alloy, lube the way we hold the rifle from shot to shot, powder charge so many variables. just shoot a group or two and cant the rifle one way and the other and see it spread out. and I am not real good at it just do the best I can and have fun. darn I need to get to the range but have a car in the shop
  

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JLouis
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Re: Lead?
Reply #29 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 4:48pm
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Joe I could not agree with you more, getting out to shoot more is really the fix all to good shooting. How else could one ever figure what might make a change and what might not in regards to bullet hardness and the multitude of other varibles. It is also the only way to know if someone is giving out good and successful personal experianced advice or just arm chair theories or unfounded advice of what should work and the only way for one to prove it to themselves.

I hope you get your car back soon and its nothing serious.

JLouis
  

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