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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Cabine Tree adventures (Read 7294 times)
Pentz
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Cabine Tree adventures
Mar 9th, 2016 at 10:31pm
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While on a mission to work up a new match of 16-thereabouts BHN melt I spent a couple of hours with the Cabine Tree, testing ingots of lead that had been sorted by origin (COWW, SOWW, RS, Linotype) and got some surprising results.  Alot of my range scrap tested out in the 12 range, the COWW in 16, the SOWW in the 5 range, and the linotype varied considerably, 18-22.  I took several readings in some cases, front and back.  The tester is an interesting device that takes some practice.  All in all a good investment, but I wonder is sometimes I worry too much.  At least my sorts became more consistent.  Just rambling....
  

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calledflyer
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #1 - Mar 10th, 2016 at 4:55pm
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Since you used the word "thereabouts" in your post, I would like to ask how close to some precise alloy our guns really do like. We hear of folks striving to improve a load by going from, say, 20:1 to the only slightly different 19:1. Or, maybe 12 bhn to 14 bhn. 
I don't have an official hardness testing device, unless you count one's thumbnail. But, by mixing my alloys sort of by feel, or guesswork, I manage to shoot pretty well.
I know my rifles get a diet of bullets that are at least somewhat varied, and they seem to shoot most of it without any noteable difference. So, guys, just how fussy about alloy are our rifles at the levels most of us work in?
  
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Pentz
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #2 - Mar 10th, 2016 at 10:04pm
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The lead hardness tester is approximate, not absolute.  To be confident of the readings one has to be consistent when deciding to take the reading, and take several on each piece.  It will still take trial and error to produce a desired melt, and one had better mark each ingot with the BHN and keep good notes as to the "ingredients" and proportions.  At the end of the day, one's homebrew 20-1  will be different from certified metal 20-1 due to inclusions such as copper from the range scrap.  What I found most interesting/vexing was the variability in my sort revealed by the testing.
  

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calledflyer
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #3 - Mar 10th, 2016 at 10:53pm
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Pentz, I understand you, and I also know that these are not microscopic accurate tests that can be performed. It's not the alloy itself I was curious about, but rather, the rifle's sensitivity to a precise alloy. We know that a couple of tenths of a grain of powder might make a difference, but does a point on a bhn scale make any?  Your terms- range and thereabouts- were what got me curious enough to ask. Those terms seem to be as close as my rifles seem to require in alloys.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #4 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 12:27am
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I doubt it is critical.  One of the best shooters in our LR BP series here in WA, OR and BC shooting out to 600 and 800 4x a year cast bullets his by dropping a couple wheel weights at a time into one of those Lee pots with a heating element and a pour spout. He would poor 2 or three bullets, drop in a few more wheel weights and come back about 15 to 30 minutes   later and pour 2 or 3 more.  It was obvious all the trouble I went through for consistent, perfect bullets was a waste of time, but I still did it  Undecided
  

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Pentz
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #5 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 6:34am
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Good points.  Fancy lead won't substitute for experience and trigger time.  If I ever get enough of both, I will be working on a comparison of isotope core 25-1 with certified 25-1 in my 32-20.  I know I can feel the difference in breech seating.
  

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KAF
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #6 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 9:01am
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A few years back I wondered if a 25:1 alloy was the one to use.
I alloy ONLY so called pure lead and pure tin, remember there are always some other metals in pure lead, even if certified by the NRC.

I took my normal alloy and some 30:1 to see if there was a noticeable difference.  There was none I could see.

30:1 saves a bit of tin.

I am thinking the last time I checked hardness of the 25:1 it was about 9bhn.

I like the Lee hardness tester, seems pretty consistent.

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I'd like to find a cheap old microscope and affix the measuring thingie to make it easier to read, but it does work.
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #7 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 9:12am
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Hardness testers do tell you how hard the mystery metal is but not what it’s made from. That brings me to a second point with range scrap you have no idea what is in the alloy. Even buying metal from dealers is no guarantee of what it is I can find 4 different alloys for “Linotype” wheel weights is anyone’s guess what pot metals are in it. Hardness is not the only quality that makes a good bullet, ductility is important also. All in all if your shooting range scrap your scores will reflect it.

40 Rod
  
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #8 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 9:28am
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Good thought, select only those scrap bullets that went into the 25!

  

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JLouis
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #9 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 11:21am
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I think it depends on what type of shooting one is doing. If its serious benchrest competition I have found that the hardest lead and tin alloy your gun will shoot without leading has worked best for me. If one is using a long spitzer bullet the unsupported nose will tend to slump off enter side from the rotational force / RPMs. Also when using a long spitzer bullet and more so with a tapered one the nose will move back to try to fill the grooves and the bullet will shorten in length. This can also cause the nose of the bullet to move off center if it does move back equally around its diameter. A friend of mine did catch box testing and found nose slumps from .005 to .012 thousandths to be typical. A typical Schuetzen 32-40 benchrest rifle will provide roughly 70,000 RPM with a muzzle vel. of 1450 with a 15 twist. If you think in terms of an out of balance drive shaft and its effects the same holds true for an out of balance bullet as caused buy the slight nose slump or simply cast with an imbalance. This is why one would want to use a richer tin alloy to give the bullet additional strength. I use a 1-16 alloy and it has shown an improvment for me over 1-25 and 1-20. This typical nose slumping found on the long spitzer might be why the Cylindrical Flat Nose have proven to be more consistant as there is very little nose to slump and the bullet shortens less to fill the grooves and thus retains more of its as cast design when exiting the muzzle. Our soft lead and tin bullets do not retain their original shape exactly and what goes in the breach is not the same bullet that comes out the muzzle.

JLouis
  

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calledflyer
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #10 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 12:12pm
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Good replys here. I was curious because I either have the most accommodating Winchester ever made, or magic casting ability. One doubtful, the other unbelievable. 
You see, it'll shoot under a moa or better with alloys from  wheelweight(80)/soft(20)tin added, to alloy of 30:1 tin/lead. Not pointy bullets- little slump danger. Fixed, of course. (Breechseated was on softer side for obvious reasons.) The controlling factor seemes more powder and charge related than alloy. Just wondering if others found similar in their experiments.   
And, John, you seem to relate only in terms of "seriousness", but let me say that just because we are all not at matches may not mean that we don't shoot just as well or passionately as you and others who do compete. Just sayin' Smiley
  
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JLouis
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #11 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 3:19pm
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Calledfyer my posts are generally related to the new fellows getting into serious Schuetzen competition. My passion is to get them to the top of the winners list by not making the same mistakes as myself when I first got started and to show them the easiest and fastest route to success.
This in no way takes away from those interested in simply getting their rifles up to the best of their abilitly outside the real of serious competition or those who simply enjoy shooting them.
There are those who can use my information to their benefit and there are those who couldn't give a hoot. I do not complain about all the posts outside the realm of my interests and I can only ask that others show me the same respect. There is more than enough room for all of us to share our special intrests all though they might differ from others so please respect mine as I respect yours and others.

JLouis
  

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calledflyer
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #12 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 4:12pm
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John, didn't mean it to be a bash. I was just relating to you that the same info would apply to a curious non-competitor as it would to the most rabid badge chaser. I used to do some match shooting, but the thing seemed like winning became more meaningful than the simple process of just learning for it's own sake.
Besides, in this field my rifle isn't a match gun, but an over the counter one from 125 years back. So, I consider it's ability to shoot this well is remarkable and I like to learn about why it is this way. Gotta ask the guys, like you and the others for aid in this stuff. Like the lead hardness in this thread, I have a query that you will be able to shed some light on also. For another time.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #13 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 6:01pm
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I apologize for the miss understanding CF and I admire your eagerness to learn why your rifle shoots well. I like winning without a doubt but I enjoy my test outings more than I do the match competition. Getting out to figure how to make ones rifle shoot just a tad better has always been a joy for me. Most if not all share this same intrest in accuracy whether its for plinking, hunting, competition or just the love of sending cast bullets down the range. After all these years of experimentation and or practice outings I still come up  something new to try before I even leave the range. Less so now being on a limited income and not being able buy what I have not yet tried. The list is shorter now than in the past when I first began, I want to try some of new powders that were recently introduced and their is none to be found in this part of the country. The few gun shops around here no longer have an intrest in stocking powder or primers for that matter. Used to be one could run to the local gun shop and buy a handful of various primers and powders for testing purposes but unfortunatly now in my instance it has to purchased online from one of the out of state suppliers. The shipping and hazmat fees make it quite a bit harder now to justify the increased costs to simply pick up a small variety of each to test with.

If time allows I would really enjoy seeing a couple pictures of your rifle and I wish you the best with it.

JLouis
  

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Re: Cabine Tree adventures
Reply #14 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 6:34pm
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On the subject of lead hardness, I have an old German Schuetzen I would like to shoot before I order a mold. It slugs .311. Would shooting an 18 hardness bullet from Missouri Bullets be ok? Any other source of .311 bullets? Plan on fixed ammo with these bullets.
Thanks Mike
  
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