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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po (Read 23175 times)
emmett22405
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Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Feb 3rd, 2016 at 10:26am
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Just got the Q announcement and reading between the lines someone has blown up a trapdoor using 5744 powder and an over powder wad. Why are over powder wads verboten for double based powders, when by inference it is ok for single based? Don't understand the physics (or chemistry). Enlightenment please
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #1 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 11:03am
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When a wad is placed directly on the powder it creates conditions that lead to a bulge in the chamber. A lot of this is dependent on the size of the charge used the stronger the charge the faster the bulge or ring will appear. Of course if you ignore the ring sooner or later the stressed metal will fail. 
If a wad is placed .050” to ‘100” off the power and the powder is allowed to slump, or even better if the powder is oriented to the mouth of the case and allowed to slump to the rear the bulging is virtually eliminated. 
With any smokeless powder you can load past the action / barrels ability to contain the blast. As this was a trapdoor that has always been classified as a weak action it is possible that wad or no it would have burst the action.

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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #2 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 11:14am
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They should have banned 5744 powder. Reduced charges of slow burning IMR/stick powders is dangerous. Used to be written in all the reloading manuals. 

There was a thread here not long ago asking for slow burning powder reduced load information.  Read a book!

         Joe.
  

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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #3 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 11:19am
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Never been to the Quigley but sounds like the firing line is a dangerous spot to be with reported blow up's.

Probably had to put some sort of rule in even though it's going to have little effect. No science involved.  Only rule that will limit blow up's is Black Powder only.   

Don't get me wrong I shoot mostly smokeless powder. 650 shooters some with questionable ability shooting weak actions loading smokeless off internet information. I don't want to be there. 

Shooting BPCS with Black only rule never even think about blow up's. Schuetzen matches I go to know almost everybody and don't worry much about them either.  I did shoot next to one fellow this year that made me very nervous.   

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« Last Edit: Feb 3rd, 2016 at 11:25am by boats »  
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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #4 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 11:24am
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BP can blow a rifle up too. I'm against dumbing down. Get smart. Read a book.


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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #5 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 11:45am
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Joe it can but way less likely too.  650 people some are going to be dumb.

No matter to me I won't be there.

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marlinguy
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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #6 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 11:47am
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The Quigley attracts all types of shooters, from novice to long time. It also attracts various levels of expertise in reloading, so it's obvious that accidents can occur. Not sure they can totally stop that, without doing some long drawn out interview for those entering the match.
Fortunately the shooting positions are far enough apart that flying pieces of metal have never hurt other shooters. Not sure if I've even read of anyone else getting hit, let alone hurt. 
I sure hope their ban on wads and double base powders stops it. But I doubt that alone will fix the issue. Seems there's also some who push other limits, and unless they can control general ignorance, it will likely happen again.
  

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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #7 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 11:52am
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Thought I might go one year. Not now. 

         Joe.
  

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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #8 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 12:16pm
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Since the match is based on a movie, and in the movie Quigley used Black Powder,  why not just use Black Powder .

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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #9 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 12:28pm
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Three basic types of powder are used in our sport although they are often listed as two (black powder and smokeless).  These basic types are more directly labeled as black powder (and substitute), single-base smokeless (nitrocellulose) and double base smokeless (which has an added buffered nitroglycerine component).

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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #10 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 12:29pm
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Quote:
Just got the Q announcement and reading between the lines someone has blown up a trapdoor
Emmett, the "Q" - Quigley Buffalo Rifle Match event dates are June 18th & 19th 2016.
How about a link to the announcement you just got to sort this Q information out unless you read the website.  If your referring to the Safety Page on the Q website - that trapdoor issue is prior history ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Quote:
Quigley Safety
 
Last, but certainly not least, if you didn’t notice when reading the flyer above, we have implemented a new safety policy for smokeless shooters. If you shoot any double-based smokeless powder, we do not consider loads using an over-powder wad (cotton, Dacron, whatever) as a safe load. Most popular at the Quigley is AA 5744. It is designed to not be position sensitive in the cartridge case and needs no over powder wad for accuracy. Do not bring any such loaded cartridges as match or practice ammunition. More information is provided on the Quigley website. Thank you for your compliance


And as for safety, I read more incidents about Cowboy shooters blowing up rifles and handguns than the percentage at Quigley ...
Quote:
The Quigley Match has a very credible safety record over its twenty-four years with 443,190 bullets sent down range during competition.  Including sighting in, practice and just having fun shooting, there have easily been over a million cartridges fired at the Quigley range.  There have been two accidents involving injuries, one during a match and the other during practice.  That is a .0002 percent accident rate.

Thanks Kindly
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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #11 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 12:41pm
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This upcoming Q match will be my 14th and I don't feel any less safe there than I do next to the guy at my rifle range.  Joe, you'd better give up shooting schuetzen too; probably less safe than the Quigley. Wink Wink Who was the California guy that blew up his highwall at a schuetzen match about 8-10 years ago with a double charge?  It was in the ASSRA journal.
  
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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #12 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 1:02pm
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Accidents happen, reading a book will not stop people from making mistakes, but when a problem is known and written about...... er, uh, physics aint like they used to be. You couldn't pay me enough to use 5744 powder in anything. No one powder can do everything. Saying so sells a lot of powder. 

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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #13 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 1:58pm
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Over the years I've shot the Q about a dozen times and can say it is as safe there as at any other match. As I remember there is a box to check what powder you use and as I remember black is about 85%.  There is always the idiot.  Once a shooter came to the match without loading any cartridges and Saturday morning just before the match started he sent his wife around with instructions to beg, bower or steal some Reloader 7.  We know there are always some that think faster is better and if you are a current or former schuetzen shooter, you know that doesn't work very well with old guns, cast bullets and smokeless powder.  The match has always been considered something of a traditional, buffalo era, type match and many dress the occasion and use only black.  Scuttlebutt says that many in the Forsyth Rod & Gun Club shoot smokeless at the match.  What's the phun in shooting smokeless in a Sharps or other old and replica type gun when the objective is to duplicate buffalo shooting of the late 1800's?
  
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Re: Quigley ban on over powder wads wi double based po
Reply #14 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 3:29pm
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First thing that came to my mind was: "How they 'gonna' enforce this ban? Ammo check? --good luck on checking 600+ shooters ammo.

Then I thought that they can ban all they want but there will always be some Fool or Complete Fool who will think "My loads safe, I've been doping it for years!"

Wonder if this was done for liability/insurance purposes??
  

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