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RSW
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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #15 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 11:11pm
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uscra112
You are correct about the switch from muzzle loading to breech seating near the end of the schuetzen era. The big switch to breech seating coincided with the emergence of smokeless powders such as Schuetzen Smokeless, Bulk Shotgun and Sharpshooter plus better primers, giving equal accuracy to duplex or semi-smokeless powders. 
Muzzle loading made sense with duplex and semi-smokeless as most of the fouling was pushed through the barrel and out the open breech when ramming a bullet down the barrel. Breech seating with those powders required barrel cleaning between shots or powder fouling prevented seating subsequent bullets.
With smokeless powder, breech seating was easy shot after shot as powder fouling was minimal. This made the extra steps required for muzzle loading no longer necessary.
The attached photo shows bases of muzzle loaded and breech seated bullets. Both bullets were .001 over grooved diameter. Those fins protruding from the breech seated bullet must not be of any real consequence as that particular rifle is killer accurate.
To keep everything in proper historical perspective remember, schuetzen was an all offhand game.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #16 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 11:18pm
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BP wrote on Feb 3rd, 2016 at 9:22pm:
Schuetzenmiester wrote on Feb 3rd, 2016 at 8:40pm:
Kurt_701 wrote on Feb 3rd, 2016 at 7:51pm:
I believe Pope said the main benefit of seating with a false muzzle was the lead displaced by the rifling was pushed toward the bullet nose rather than forming fins on the base. That lent toward better accuracy. 
Kurt

Good theory, but mine never shot any better ML.  IMO, disturbing the set up on the bench would be more detrimental than the fins made by the rifling.

Did you try it off-hand?

Yup, I decided it wasn't worth the trouble.  Slower than BS too. 

Edit: Got tired of waiting for cease fire to get my false muzzle too Cheesy
  

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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #17 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 11:44pm
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Not being an aeronautics engineer, I can't see that the 'fins', if evenly arranged would hurt accuracy. Maybe long range trajectory, but not at our one and two hundred yards. Even revolver bullets that get the devil of a beating before leaving the barrel make it to the target very nicely.
  
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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #18 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 9:40am
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My understanding of the advantages of muzzle-breech loading is that as the bullet was pushed down the bore any black powder fouling was pushed down also. Pope did write that the lead was pushed back at the instead of forming fins but I think that this was of minimal benefit as Popes lands were quite small. When smokeless improved and fouling was no longer an issue Breech seating became more popular.
  The one thing that is interesting to me is that when the bullet is muzzle-loaded and pushed through the bore if you push the bullet all the way out and catch it the base is no longer flat it is cup shaped. Has anyone else observed this?

40 Rod
  
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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #19 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 9:57am
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I believe I read somewhere that loading with a false muzzle was to conserve energy and not get tired out during a long  match.  They stood the rifle in the racks that you see in so many pictures of old shooting shacks.  Kept them from lifting heavy rifles a lot. Bob
  
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RSW
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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #20 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 10:18am
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40 Rod
I've been working with 3 muzzle loading rifles over the past 6 months or so (1 each; Pope on a Ballard, Schoyen on a 44 1/2, and Krieger on a Ballard). Slightly cupped bullet bases were most pronounced when muzzle loading tight fitting bullets with long bearing surfaces. Such bullets are hard to start through the false muzzle and have significantly greater drag on the barrel when rammed home, than bullets with less bearing surface. My test case is far too small a sample to be definitive but that was the common factor among various bullets I've tested.
The bullet shown in my post above, is what I would call a proper fitting muzzle loading bullet. Alloy is 1:30 and the base band is .001 over groove diameter. You can see how the lands cut the bearing bands most at the base and less toward the front. The lands just kiss the front wiper band. Notice, there is no cupping of the bullet base.
Accuracy does not seem to be different between bullets with the cupped bases vs those are flat.
  

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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #21 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 11:20am
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Randy 
The rifle that was used was a Pope the bullet came from the mold that Pope cut for that gun. All the Pope breech seating bullets that I have seen have what to my mind is an extreamly heavy base, but thats the way Pope cut them.

40 Rod
  
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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #22 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 2:08pm
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I thought that the false muzzle was bored to the groove diameter of the barrel to align the bullet. I don't see the advantage of having it rifled.
  
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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #23 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 2:33pm
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My 38-55 ML Hepburn rifle is most accurate when I can see a ring of light around the bullet when at the breech ready to fire. Groove diameter and over groove diameter bullets are not nearly as accurate. My assumption is that the the tight fitting bullets disturb or remove the bullet lube in the grooves. Had one target where the first seven shots were solid twenty fives. Eighth shot went low in the twenty two, ninth shot low twenty two. Messed around and found I had hard fouling just ahead of the chamber. Seating a bullet felt normal but was actually seating on the hard fouling. Cleaned the barrel and the last shot was a twenty five. Now I use a dedicated loading rod with an adjustable brass thingamabobber. If theingamabobber doesn't touch the false muzzle when loading I know something isn't right. 

         Joe.
  

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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #24 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 5:05pm
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Joe
I assume your adjustable brass thingamabobber sits at the handle end of your loading rod. I'd sure appreciate it if you would post a photo of how you made it. I'll bet it comes in handy when you are experimenting with different bullet lengths or varying the space the bullet seats ahead of the case mouth.
I was thinking about making a thingamabobber to make my loading rod length adjustable and would like to see your solution.
Thanks
  

Randy W
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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #25 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 6:27pm
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Bore guide with a set screw is what it really is. Flip it over for a bore guide.

      Joe.
  

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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #26 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 8:30pm
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Joe
Elegantly simple. That's a great solution.
I even have a couple brass bore guides lying around the shop.
Thank you for sharing your idea.
  

Randy W
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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #27 - Feb 5th, 2016 at 12:27am
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Necessity is the mother of invention. Also helps to be a tight wad.   Wink

        Joe.
  

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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #28 - Feb 5th, 2016 at 2:28am
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I have always been concerned the loseness of a M L bullet would allow gas cutting ahead of the chamber.Any experience anyone?  I have seen several well used antique ML rifles that had an enlarged area and a patch would fall off the jag.
  

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Re: Can someone explain to me .......
Reply #29 - Feb 5th, 2016 at 10:31am
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Schuetzenmeister
Shoot them enough and rifle barrels wear out. It's nothing new. Chris Westergaard wrote in the American Rifleman magazine back in the 1920's that he finally switched from muzzle loading to breech seating his schuezen rifle because a muzzle loaded bullet would no longer stay in place ahead of the chamber. That section of the barrel had worn so loose, a muzzle loaded bullet would drop into the chamber.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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