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mori
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1885 hiwall plans
Dec 1st, 2015 at 12:23am
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I read somewhere that ASSRA has 1885 Winchester plans for sale. How would I find this out and who should I contact? Mori
  
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craigster
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #1 - Dec 1st, 2015 at 12:38am
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This might be a start:

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fallingblock
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #2 - Dec 1st, 2015 at 8:03am
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Link to ASSRA Archives 

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Cheers,
Laurie
  

Cheers,
Laurie
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harry_eales
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #3 - Dec 1st, 2015 at 11:53am
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If you want to build a Winchester 1885 Hi-Wall then this thread may help you. See:-
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Not everyone has access to a CNC milling machine or the knowledge to be able to programme one, but there are other ways of shaping steel. Have a read through the URL. Alphawolf is also an ASSRA member. Building a rifle action from scratch is not for the wannabee machinist, you must have some machining experience. However, if you have these skills, then the world of single shot firearms is your oyster, as long as you can get plans, or draw them yourself. If you are in the latter group, then power to your elbow.  Smiley

Harry
  
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ALPHAWOLF45
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #4 - Dec 11th, 2015 at 2:37pm
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I sure appreciate every compliment I get like this one. Thank you Harry.My Dad lived to 90 years old and I called him every Saturday for 25 years and not once did he ever compliment me on anything....

     Want to say that there are some errors in every set of plans you will encounter..I had built a few Low walls and Highwalls before I ever tried building one faithfully to a set of plans- then I really had trouble...Several places on the net I documented where the uhh-ohhs and Gotchas are in the Highwall plans...Evenso I ended up with a rifle I was able to compete with for a couple years..

   Hey,hey,hey, I am presently working on the worlds only .22 caliber Spencer rifle and expect to use it to achieve Master class rating in small bore silhouette matches...There is NOTHING quite as satisfying as building your own gun and win a shooting match with it...I have already won some matches with my home built Marlin 1892 .22 ...A better shooter could have used that rifle to win a heap more matches. Smiley
  Anyway.. Have fun with your builds. Smiley
  
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chawk
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #5 - Dec 12th, 2015 at 8:08am
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Given that there are always errors in plans wouldn't it be easier to get your hands on an original, take your own measurements, and then build from there?  Obviously this does not work when you beef up your action like AlphaWolf, but if you wanted to make a direct copy then couldn't that work?   

Just a question form someone who knows nothing about machining anything.
  
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harry_eales
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #6 - Dec 12th, 2015 at 10:30am
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Chawk,
If I can butt in here, most of the plans are drawn by taking the dimensions from original rifles, however some of these may be up to 2 centuries old and considerable wear may have taken place during that time. Therefore getting the precise measurement can be difficult and the draftsman may have to take an educated guess as to what certain dimensions are and they may be right or wrong. Then again two old rifles double your costs in expenditure and depending on the age of the firearms, (they may have been made many years apart) and changes made by the manufacturer because of some wear or breakage in regular use. Manufacturers still do that today but don't always advertise that fact. Just look at how many recalls there are on cars for fixing or upgrading or fitting beefed up parts.

Very few detailed blueprint drawings exist from the days when these old rifles were made and that's why working builders have to work off original actions. The rarer the rifle the higher the price because of demand from collectors and shooters. Eventually you have to draw the line somewhere (no pun intended). That's why most plans available are back engineered from mass produced weapons that are still affordable. 
Harry
  
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desert-dude
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #7 - Dec 12th, 2015 at 11:15am
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I've heard 2nd or 3rd hand that to do a good job of reverse engineering an old gun
you need about 10 different examples to measure. If you are not too worried about
having an exact reproduction of the original then one action and some common sense will do. 

The Brits did it a different way. They made a "pattern" rifle to serve as an example
and bidders came to the armoury and took measurements off the master pattern.

I have no  idea how far back drawings were used in this country but certainly Winchester used drawing for the single shot. 

A good approach might be to take the ASSRA drawings and compare them with the original Winchester drawings. 

One of the NPS people at Springfield might be able to tell you how far back
the amory used drawings.

Sorry, just had to rock the boat. Wink
  
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chawk
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #8 - Dec 12th, 2015 at 12:06pm
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All of that makes such perfect sense I am a little mad at myself for not seeing that earlier.  Thanks guys.
  
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fallingblock
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #9 - Dec 12th, 2015 at 1:01pm
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Winchester also used master patterns for all of the rifles at least up to the Winchester 1894. I do know the pattern drawers also included Winchester 52 barrels as when some of the drawers were for sale I saw them pilled in a mixed drawer. Sure wish I had the $$ to get the 1892 and 1894 drawers. 
One needs many original parts to do a reverse engineered drawing even if all original unused parts are found the +- tolerance specifications are unknown. Frank Zika was always looking for unused Winchester 1885 parts to up date his drawings as he wanted his parts to be interchangeable with the originals.
Some people have used the plans from the Archives to build rifles so they do work but how well I do not know. 
Cheers,
Laurie
  

Cheers,
Laurie
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Chuckster
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #10 - Dec 13th, 2015 at 11:32am
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Can say from experience that the ASSRA drawings are pretty darn good.
Have not built the Winchester, but have built the Hepburn, Ballard and tang sights from the drawings and they do not require an apology.
The most obvious error is the upside down tang piece on the Ballard drawings.
I make it a point to draw each piece before trying to machine it. The old saw is, "if you cannot draw it, you cannot build it."
Have not found a missing critical dimension and cannot resist trying to "improve" things. Sometimes works, sometimes not.
May have to make some changes to accommodate your tools. Don't have all the tools that were available in the factory.
Makes for interesting projects and the plans are most reasonably priced.
Chuck
  
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chipmaker
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #11 - Dec 13th, 2015 at 1:40pm
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I've found that reverse engineering an original action works best for me. It is also a good excuse to search for and add another gun to the collection.
After drawing the parts, I then create a solid model of the action, that can be printed. The printed action insures that all the parts work properly and have the proper clearances.
I don't see where the preceding method wouldn't work with an already existing set of plans and would readily identify plan errors.

  
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #12 - Dec 13th, 2015 at 5:34pm
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I'm currently "in the middle of" building a Winchester Highwall from the ASSRA plans.
"Alphawolf" is absolutely correct in saying there are some "gotchas" in those plans, though I had read most of his comments and suggested solutions before starting my build, so have avoided most of them. The one I did not forsee is the breechblock angle showing as 6 degrees rather than the 5 it is supposed to be. Not a "fatal error" though and still workable.
I imported my plans into AutoCAD and have re-drawn a lot of them. Must say I'd be lost without the AutoCAD. Just 2D for me though. I can see where something like "SolidWorks" would be quite a useful tool too. Just not available to me.
Its a huge undertaking to start carving an action out of bar stock. Several hundred hours of work. These guys that build these reproduction actions as a business -- I don't see how they can make much money at it -- even with CNC equipment (which I don't have).
Still a satisfying experience -- if you like lots of shop time.
Just hope I can get it finished sometime in this lifetime. Grin
  
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SSShooter
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #13 - Dec 13th, 2015 at 6:44pm
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Think both C.Sharps and Shiloh Sharps (the two "big dogs" in this very small industry) start from castings rather than bar stock. Not sure about CPA, DZ Arms & MVA.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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MG-42
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Re: 1885 hiwall plans
Reply #14 - Dec 14th, 2015 at 8:04am
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ALPHAWOLF45 wrote on Dec 11th, 2015 at 2:37pm:
I sure appreciate every compliment I get like this one. Thank you Harry.My Dad lived to 90 years old and I called him every Saturday for 25 years and not once did he ever compliment me on anything....

     Want to say that there are some errors in every set of plans you will encounter..I had built a few Low walls and Highwalls before I ever tried building one faithfully to a set of plans- then I really had trouble...Several places on the net I documented where the uhh-ohhs and Gotchas are in the Highwall plans...Evenso I ended up with a rifle I was able to compete with for a couple years..

   Hey,hey,hey, I am presently working on the worlds only .22 caliber Spencer rifle and expect to use it to achieve Master class rating in small bore silhouette matches...There is NOTHING quite as satisfying as building your own gun and win a shooting match with it...I have already won some matches with my home built Marlin 1892 .22 ...A better shooter could have used that rifle to win a heap more matches. Smiley
  Anyway.. Have fun with your builds. Smiley

  
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