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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Whitney-Laidley Split Breech (Read 20719 times)
marlinguy
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #15 - Nov 27th, 2015 at 12:05am
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Chuckster wrote on Nov 26th, 2015 at 11:09pm:
Vall,
Thanks for the explanation. Not sure I understand the advantage, but an interesting rifle and will do some more checking.
The Remington #1 certainly has some possibilities.
Chuck


The only advantage I see in the Laidley improvement is the kicking extractor. Especially so if you were reloading in a hurry! But the military didn't choose it in the 1871 trials, so I guess they didn't see an advantage. Or Whitney didn't grease the wheels!
Surprisingly the .22RF Roller has a near perfect bore! But the chamber has been nicely sleeved. Maybe to repair some issue there? The front dovetail has also been worked over by Bubba, and I'm going to have to cut a clean dovetail and install a tight filler. Then cut a new 3/8" dovetail in the oversized filler. Existing is too wide, and too deep after Bubba's file work.
  

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majorfs45
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #16 - Nov 27th, 2015 at 6:46pm
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I got this from a question and answer chat somewhere:   
"Difference between the Remington and the Whitney Type I:
The Remington system has a Geiger Patent two part breech: a rotation breech block and a hammer/tumbler which locks the breech block in place.  The early Whitney is based on the Laidley Patent.  It has a four part system: a hammer part system: a hammer,  a separately rotating brace block (pivoted on the same pin as the hammer), a breech block, and a separately rotating lever (pivoted on the same pin as the breech block) which moves the brace block to unlock.  It's claim to fame is that the block was locked closed even with the hammer full cocked."  (Where as the Remington style, the block is not locked in place, until the trigger is pulled and the hammer block moves forward and under the breech block.  Thus an added safety feature in the early Whitney action.)
  
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majorfs45
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #17 - Nov 27th, 2015 at 6:57pm
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Patent on the Whitney improved action, this may help in seeing the four piece rolling block system.
  
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majorfs45
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #18 - Nov 27th, 2015 at 6:59pm
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second page
  
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majorfs45
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #19 - Nov 27th, 2015 at 6:59pm
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and third page
  
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majorfs45
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #20 - Nov 27th, 2015 at 7:16pm
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Again, I recommend the article out of the The Single Shot Magazine on the first, improved and then the final change to the Remington style rolling block by Whitney.  Usually, they have extra copies in back stock, so call Lee Shaver and order a copy.  Great reading!
It will give some insight into why they used the rolling block design and the reasons for the changes to their rolling block rifles.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #21 - Nov 27th, 2015 at 8:33pm
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Thanks for the great diagrams!
They're kinda playing with words to indicate the Remington isn't as safe, or could somehow be fired without the breechblock seated or locked.
But either will allow the hammer to drop once the block is fully forward, so unsure how the designers thought one was safer than the other. Holding them side by side, and trying to make either drop at different points seems impossible. The only thing the Rem. Rolling Block could do is drop the hammer against the block, and then if you closed the block it would finish dropping and discharge. 
Maybe that's what they mean by the Whitney being safer?
  

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majorfs45
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #22 - Nov 28th, 2015 at 10:07am
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This is part of the article out of the Single Shot Exchange titled "The Other Rolling Block Rifles" by William Roth Jr. dated June 2012.  (This is reference to the first sets of patent drawing above.)

"The redesigned Whitney Type I Rolling Block was actually more complicated that the original Laidley-Emery version. In addition to the original breech-block (C), locking cam (D), locking cam spring (E) and operating lever (C2) an additional forked lever (L) with tongue (P) was added; additionally, a third notch was added to the hammer.  The hammer notches are now: 1st deep notch is "safe"; 2nd deep notch is "half cock"; 3rd shallow notch is "full cock". The breech block cannot be opened unless the hammer is in either the half or full cock positions with the half cock position being the normal position.  I will not go through the entire patent description concerning the operation with the new forked lever (L); however, this change was apparently added to prevent accidental discharge while loading. According to available historical documentation an estimated 40,000 to 50,000 improved Type I rifles were made from 1871-1881."

This is what makes the above rifle a real find!!!  A great piece of history that he gets to hold and possibly shoot. 
I would really just like to borrow it for the weekend just to play with it. lol

Really want to thank William Roth, Jr. for writing the article, super piece of research, super reading and hats off to The Single Shot Exchange for publishing it.
« Last Edit: Nov 28th, 2015 at 10:25am by majorfs45 »  
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marlinguy
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #23 - Nov 28th, 2015 at 11:03am
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I of course took mine apart as soon as I got home. I noticed the mainspring is two separate springs overlaid, with one being a standard mainspring, and the other a very thin forked spring that doesn't touch the center of the hammer, but instead the forks rest on the outer sides of the hammer. I wonder if this is the "L" forked lever Roth refers to in his article?
I need to take the Whitney apart again, and study the internals more. I didn't even try rolling the block open at half cock, as I'm used to Rolling Blocks that wont allow that function. That certainly does make for a much safer action!
  

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majorfs45
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #24 - Nov 28th, 2015 at 1:22pm
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Wow, you didn't say you had one too!  What caliber and a few photos I think are in order now, lol.   

Yes, when you get time and take it apart, give us a report to what you find.  But first try that half cock and see what happens.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #25 - Nov 28th, 2015 at 1:56pm
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majorfs45 wrote on Nov 28th, 2015 at 1:22pm:
Wow, you didn't say you had one too!  What caliber and a few photos I think are in order now, lol 


Hmm...thought that was the thread starter? My recent purchase of said rifle.
  

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majorfs45
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #26 - Nov 29th, 2015 at 11:13am
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Ok, I am idiot.  I guess I was just hoping we had another rifle to look at, lol.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #27 - Nov 29th, 2015 at 11:52am
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Yeah, two would really be a stroke of luck! Unfortunately, the other was a common #1 Sporter Remington.
  

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rustyrelx
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #28 - Nov 29th, 2015 at 1:08pm
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Vall:  For what its worth I know there is a least one Whitney Laidley Long Range. It is pistol gripped with long range tang sight and a 32" half round barrel. 80% gun. Was originally a 44-77 and stamped but a 44-90 would chamber. Of course wind gage front sight. I know of this one because I owned it back in the early 80's. Sold it out of necessity because of wife. Perfect bore. A really nice gun that I should never have sold. Anyway its out there somewhere.
   Don
  
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Re: Whitney-Laidley Split Breech
Reply #29 - Nov 29th, 2015 at 1:33pm
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Looks like a Whitney-Lairdley on Gunbroker. Not mine.

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Regards,
Powderman
  
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