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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 45-70 mold??? (Read 16134 times)
KenHo
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45-70 mold???
Nov 4th, 2015 at 10:35pm
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Hello all - a quick question; For shooting a 45-70 at distances less than 100 yds (say deer hunting), would you expect much difference in the accuracy of 350 grain, 405 grain, 450 grain, or 500 grain bullets?  I understand for long distance shooting the 500 grain bullets usually are the bullet of choice.

For deer hunting I can see an advantage of the 350 grain bullet because of the extra velocity, less bullet drop.

I'm thinking mostly of the Lee Precision series of molds - they're cheap {g}  Any comments on the Lee Precision SC 459-405 HB Mold for a SAAMI chambered rifle barrel from E.R. Shaw?  This will be a 22 twist rate installed on a Rolling Block action.

Thanks for any comments 'n guidance,

Ken H>
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #1 - Nov 4th, 2015 at 11:36pm
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500 grs is probably a bit much for 22" twist. 350 should work fine and be even better on your shoulder.  Roll Eyes
  

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bruce moulds
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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #2 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 1:43am
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ken,
there exists a bullet called the gould bullet which looks ideal for deer in 45/70. made by lyman 330 gns.
fairly light in weight and therefore fast, it should have a good range where you can aim dead on, i.e. point blank range.
penetration can be altered with alloy, but ideally no antimony in the mix, as that inclines a bullet to shattering rather than expanding and penetrating.
talking penetration, slightly overspinning a bullet improves this compared to underspinning. when a bullet hits flesh, nose pressure goes way up.
keep safe,
bruce.
« Last Edit: Nov 5th, 2015 at 2:43am by bruce moulds »  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #3 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 1:56am
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Dave, those numbers do not seem to be consistent with what we did shooting 550 grs 45's to 1000 yards in 16" twist. But they were going about 300 fps faster.
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #4 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 2:47am
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Yes it will rip your shoulder off or drive you back off the berm if your toes are not in good solid gopher holes  Cry  That is why I shot back rest, very little recoil damage  Roll Eyes I think that may be why they used straight black powder at Creedmoor; manageable recoil  Cheesy

That makes sense that there would be different  factor for 32 @ 200 and 45 @ 1K.
  

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bruce moulds
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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #5 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 2:52am
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dave, you might do it in a 45/70 rifle with black, but you would have to load from the muzzle and use more than a casefull of powder.
this was done by some long range target shooters in the day, but not really suited to hunting.
regarding stability, reading has suggested different requirements for short and long range.
308 match loads are reported to lose 25% of their spin at 1000 yds. slower bullets will lose more due to longer flight time.
100 and 200 yds do not present this problem.
talking to a br for score shooter the other day revealed that some 30 br shooters are getting round holes in the targets, and sideways bullet profiles in the backing strip.
that is taking the ragged edge of stability to the extreme!
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #6 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:09am
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I was using 8 grains of of Reloader 7 + 65 FFg Goex for about 1400-1450.
  

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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #7 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:55am
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scheutzenmeister,
in a previous life I used to load a 400 gn bullet to 2050 fps with 4198 in a marlin 95 (very light rifle) for a certain application.
it was a silly idea . Shocked
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Deadeye Bly
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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #8 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 7:51am
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Trapdoor Springfield rifles are 22" twist and they do very well with 500 grain bullets. For deer hunting I would go with the 405 grain flat nose bullet cast no harder than 30:1. It should be accurate, expand well and give complete penetrate. That's my opinion and you know what that's worth.
  
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KenHo
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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #9 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 10:03am
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Thanks for all the comments - I'll be shooting both BP and perhaps some smokeless 4759 as that powder seems to actually have a lower pressure curve than BP at the same velocity.  I am NOT pushing for high velocities - I like soft recoil  Smiley

Dave, thank you for all the info, but I don't understand.  You said Sg "should NOT" be less than 1.4, which sounds almost like the bigger Sg is the better?  Yet,  the 405 grain bullet has the highest Sg of 2.67 with the 500 grain only 1.84.  Can you elaborate on that please?

Ya'll mention "shooting BP" - How much different will the bullet behave with BP vs the 4759 I mentioned?  I know BP will cause the bullet base to obliterate (not right word, but to expand to fill rifling grooves) and best to use a bullet sized to bore (not groove) for BP, while smokeless best to use a bullet closer to groove diameter.

Thanks to all for comments - and I would "like" to stay with a lighter bullet if possible for reduced recoil and increased velocity at same perceived recoil.

Ken H>
  

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KenHo
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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #10 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 12:58pm
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Thank you for the response Dave - requirement to keep Sg between 1.4 and 2.0 explains why the old trapdoors with a 22 twist used 500 grain bullets.  I was thinking use of cast bullets required a slow twist when I ordered the E.R. Shaw barrel.  I did have a choice between 14 or 22 twist.  Would I be better served to change the twist to 14?  Would this allow use of lighter bullets - say 350 grain?  I would still need 500 grain for my Trapdoor since it's a 22 twist barrel.

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions and sharing your knowledge.

Ken >
  

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KenHo
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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #11 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:33pm
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Thanks Dave - I think your answer just now gives me the answer to the question I asked over on the "Gunsmithing Single Shot Rifles" forum.  I'll stay with the 22 twist barrel and order the 500 grain Lee mold - while Lee isn't the best mold I"m sure, I do expect it will do just fine for hunting accuracy..... and they are cheap! 

I really appreciate ya'll for providing me with many hours of good reading on these forums..... and learning.

Ken H>
  

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bruce moulds
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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #12 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 9:14pm
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ken,
don't worry about using a shorter bullet than 500 gn.
the 458 win uses quite a fast twist and does not overstabilize a 500 gn bullet, or even a 350 gn bullet.
the extra twist improves penetration on game, as extra stability is required once the bullet is in flesh.
and it goes a fair bit faster than your bullet will.
the lyman gould bullet is an express load for the 45/70, and much more suited to that sized game than a 500 gn bullet.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #13 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 10:04pm
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I shoot a 350 grain Lyman bullet in my Pacific. Fifty grains BP and a wad. Never shot a deer with it but has plenty of power.  Shot some decent OH targets with it at two hundred yards.  Deer not safe. 

I won't have a Lee mold of any kind. Junk.   

            Joe.
  

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Re: 45-70 mold???
Reply #14 - Nov 5th, 2015 at 10:16pm
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I have had equally good results with 420, 440 and 500 grain bullets shot with smokeless powder at black powder velocities, 1-22 twist in several trapdoors and sharps rifles. Best loads have been 22 gr IMR 4759 with a 500 gr bullet and 23 gr IMR 4759 or 23 gr Accurate Arms 5744 with a 420-440 gr bullet. Each rifle has its own preferences, but I think you can do fine with anything from 420-500 gr. Your mileage may vary, of course, check your reloading data with a published source. Shooting a bullet of the correct diameter is probably more important than the weight of the bullet. 420 gr is big medicine on deer. I hope this helps. Joe S
  
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