Ken,
Sure, put enough medium to slow burning nitro powder in 8X58RD case and use 200gr mantled bullet and you will have a nice moose rifle (see data in Kriggevär quoting Norma Gun Bug pub for such 8X58RD nitro loads for Swedish 8X58RD rollers). FYI:  these rifles and loads were once approved in Sweden for shooting moose, as was 12,7X42R BP loads. Ditto for Norway.

So far as I know, most of us use our 8X58RD rollers with 170-250gr cast bullets and enough 4759, etc. to get 1300 - 1500 fps at sub 20.000 CUP chamber pressures. Great for knocking down steel critters at 200M!

Sure, 300-350 0.45" bullets work fine out to at least 300M on full sized steel rams and deer out to 150M. Lobbing 520gr bullets over full 45/70 cases full of BP is not something I enjoy, even though lots of BPCR shooters think that is fun.

Grisen

Ken,

45/70 with Trapdoor Carbine loads or lighter should keep you happy for a long time and at very safe chamber pressures.  Remington-style rollers are one of my favorate types of rifles.

I have a soft spot for Norwegian and Swedish calibers and rifles, even 12,7X44R (centerfire version of rimfire 12,17X42R used in 1867 rollers).
Grisen

Dave,

One big reason that some of us feel quite safe with the 1887 Swedish rollers in original 8X58RD chambering is that most of them spent their time in Sweden in storage. Why? Because Mauser started shipping 1896 6,5X55 turnbolts before many of the 1887 rollers were issued, thereby relegating them to a lifetime in storage. Seldom have I seen an 1887 in such bad condition as most of the heavily used 1867s. The 10.000 or so 1887s that were shooter's prizes in 1942 Swedish National Match came from such storage, apparently seldom if ever issued. Mine is as new.

Also, I know of no information that 1887s have been failing by brittle fracture or any other mechanism -- only conjecture such as yours. Can you cite any information about your conjectured brittle fracture failure of these 8X58RD chambered 1887 rifles ever actually happening?

As for higher pressure loads, they are to be avoided in any older rifle, including original Winchester HWs, etc. Especially, who needs them for range shooting?

Grisen

In Jan of 2012, Tony Hietz (Tonyplace), RBKen, Mike (Ziggy on the forum) and I, had a 1867 and a 1902 analized.

The 1867 and that includes the Sweed are basically mild steel (.2% carbon) and can't be heat treated as such. The only harding compond in it is silicon (.138%) but, 1/2 the amount as mild steel.

The 1902 has .15% carbon but, .85% manganese, still not enough to harden. They (both 1867 & 1902) can only be Normalize and stress relieved.

Silicon

In addition to deoxidiation silicon also influences the steel five different ways:

Silicon helps increase the steel’s strength and hardness, but  is less effective than manganese in these functions.
In electrical and magnetic steels, silicon helps to promote desired crystal orientations and electrical resistivity.
In some high temperature service steels, silicon contributes to their oxidation resistance.
In  alloy grades, silicon also increases strength (but not plasticity!) when quenched and tempered.
Silicon also has a moderate effect on hardenability of steel.
But there are always less desireable aspects of any element in an alloy

Silicon is detrimental to surface quality in low carbon steels, a condition that is especially magnified in low carbon resulfurized steels.
Silicon is detrimental to tool life in machining as it forms hard abrasive particles which increase tool wear and thus lower the steel’s machinability.
Bottom line, on plain carbon and alloy bar steels, silicon contents of 0.10, 0.15-.35 weight percent are typical; On resulfurized , and resufurized and rephosphorized  free machining steels, silicon analysis above 0.02 wt % is cause for concern, due to potential surface quality and certain tool life issues.


Manganese

The manganese content in carbon steels is often increased for the purpose of increasing depth of hardening and improving strength and toughness.

Produced without manganese, steel breaks up when hot-rolled or forged. Steels generally contain less than 1 percent manganese. 

I believe that this is the main reason that Remington used it in the 1902. But, as near as I can tell, the .85% only increased the tensile strength 10,000 psi and the yield (most important one) <1,000 psi.

This is the link to the analize thread:


(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Frank

A comment on heat treating actions - you're right, an improperly heat treated action would certainly be brittle, but properly heat treated steel has been tempered to remove that brittleness.  The idea of "ductile" iron has some appeal to me because as it's stressed, it would stretch/move a bit causing action to be loose and easy to tell it wasn't good.   

On the two Swedish made Rolling Block actions I've drilled for scope mounts I can tell there is a surface hardening that must first be drilled thru - one that surface is broken, it drills easy.  This indicates a bit of "case hardening" which can be done to mild steel nicely.  From my understanding case hardening is not to make steel stronger, but to increase wearability, such as in trigger sears.  It also puts pretty colors in the outside and helps prevent surface scratches on outside of action. 

Ken H>

Yes, I'd found the formula for calculating the bolt thrust on Wikipedia.  The formula doesn't take into account the friction of brass on chamber side.  In the case of the Rolling Block the distance from center of cartridge at breech block to the center of breech block pin puts more stress on the pin area of breech block.

F_bolt = P_max * A_internal
where:
Fbolt = the amount of bolt thrust
Pmax = the maximum (peak) chamber pressure of the firearms cartridge
Ainternal = the inside area (of the cartridge case head) that the propellant deflagration gas pressure acts against

As shown in the 2nd failure shown on the link just above that breech block can fail.  Looks like the pin and action are still together (but broken), and a total failure of breech block allowed breech block to blow back into shooters head causing death.  Of course, that looks like a might big shell was fired - .500 Express.  Would you expect even a modern 50-70, 45-70, etc to handle that round?

Ken H>

Thanks for the links - I've just registered for the forum so I can view the charts better.  I'm now waiting for approval so I can look at the thread.  Interesting, before I registered, I could read the thread, but now I'm registered, I can not even read thread until approved.

Quote:

Were those pressure reading for smokeless as well as BP?

Ken H>