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Brian
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Rust Bluing
Oct 5th, 2015 at 9:45pm
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I'm looking for advise on rust bluing (satin black) a new 4140 barrel. I have Laurel Mountain Forge degreaser/browning agent that I was intending on using. So any tips or perhaps a better agent to use or methods would be appreciated. Also looking for a good way to keep the bore,chamber & threads safe

Thank's  Brian
  
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Chuckster
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #1 - Oct 5th, 2015 at 11:56pm
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Brian,
I have been using a homemade Niedner formula from Dunlap's book, but have heard good words about the Laurel Mountain stuff.
Polish,cleaning and sweat time are critical. At least worn 320 polish. Boil with real TSP to clean, boil again to rinse Too long sweat time will etch surface.
4140 takes more coats than mild steel, but works fine 
Protect bore and other surfaces with shellac, several coats. Remove shellac with denatured alcohol and some scrubbing.
Chuck
  
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #2 - Oct 6th, 2015 at 8:26am
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The Laurel Mountain Forge agent will give you a good color. Polish to a 320 grit. I like to finish the polish with a red Scotchbrite pad stroked lengthwise on the barrel. This gives a good satin finish. Follow the Laurel Mountain instructions. Don't rub the solution back and forth. If you get any of the copper or pink color you are doing it wrong. Don't soak the applicator, just get it wet enough to wet the barrel. The solution is a bluing producer but is also a bluing remover. Trying to rub it in will remove what you've already got going. Early on you will think it is a bad job as it won't be even colors. Just keep up the applications and boiling and it will even out. 

Don't allow it to rust heavily as it will cause pitting. That Laurel Mountain stuff is quite strong. I generally get two boilings a day but some report 3 a day. I don't have a humidity box so I count on mother nature's humidity. In cool or dry days I don't even try to rust blue. A friend of mine likes to do it on rainy weekends and gets it all done in one weekend.

I don't try to blue the muzzle end of the barrel. I just don't put solution there. The same with the chamber end.
After having bores pitted by others I decided to try rust bluing myself. I leave the bore open and do nothing to protect it except to keep the solution out of it. When I take it out of the boiling water it dries almost immediately. I run a dry patch thru the bore to make sure there is no water remaining in there. I blow out screw holes with compressed air. I've done about 10 barrels so far with no rusted or pitted bores. I know I'm a rookie in this but I got tired of paying so called professionals for pitted bores. Rust bluing is actually easy but time consuming. One good thing is that you can stop at any time and start again later if you need to.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor. Let us know how it turns out.
  
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Old-Win
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #3 - Oct 6th, 2015 at 9:49am
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Some things I've learned from doing this:
The barrel has to be CLEAN of all grease and oils.
Put the solution on sparingly! I've put the solution on with a foam painters brush (works well on flat surfaces)and also made a pad out of a cotton ball with a piece of clean old dish towel wrapped and tied around it.  There is a tendency for a drop to form where you come to the end of the barrel.  Don't leave it. It will form a deeper etch.
Wear new cotton gloves and don't touch metal with bare fingers.
Make sure the barrel has no water droplets on it anywhere before you start carding. Like Deadeye  says, blow the water out of the screw holes with a compressor. Leaving water droplets will cause spots
Do not leave any rust on the barrel after carding and before you start the next coat as this will lead to pitting.
If you don't have a carding wheel and use steel wool, wash it out in acetone and make sure it's dry.

If you don't have several days to do a Slow Rust Blue, you can use the Express Blue Method in a few hours.  Warm the parts gently with a propane torch before applying the solution.  This will cause the parts to rust immediately.  You want the solution to evaporate right away but if you get the parts too hot, the solution will sizzle and this will cause spotting.
  
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Mike_Hunter
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #4 - Oct 6th, 2015 at 10:27am
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Rust bluing is actually fairly easy, and for the most part self-correcting; meaning if you aren’t happy with the results; wipe on another coat. 

Everyone that does it has their own techniques, so I won’t go too much into that; a couple of key pieces: keep everything oil free,  nothing will ruin a nice rust bluing job quicker than a smidgen of oil,  and, boil in distilled water. 

I’ve tried the LMF solution, I never had overly good luck with it, and I always seem to get a copperish color. Obviously I’m doing something wrong, but there are other formulas out there that less finicky, so I use those. 

I, like Chuckster, used to make my own; based on  the well-publicized “Niedner formula” it’s basically Aqua Regia, a very good rust bluing solution;  the only issue I have with Aqua Regia solutions is that they are self-neutralizing so very quickly loose potency. 

I do about a dozen barrels a month, so far the most user friendly solution I’ve found is made by Mark Lee. Most associate his name with the Express Blue that he makes, but Mark is also making a slow rust blue solution. About a year ago, Mark sent me a sample to try out; it impressed me enough to where I became a dealer. 

As to protecting the bore, chamber threads etc. Don’t worry too much about it; don’t put the solution in the bore, and scrub/oil the bore well after rust bluing. The etching produced by proper rust bluing is so shallow that a good cleaning and the first round down range will iron out any microscopic pitting that’s present. 

Mike
  

Mike Hunter
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Chuckster
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #5 - Oct 6th, 2015 at 1:02pm
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Have found grocery store rubber gloves work well when rust bluing. They do come in large sizes. Scrub them regularly on your hands with hot water, Ivory soap, and a scrub brush. No finger prints yet.
Chuck
  
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Brian
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #6 - Oct 6th, 2015 at 9:20pm
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Thank's to everyone for the good advise. Now it's time to build a boiling tank (perhaps out of tin rain gutter) would the type of metal the boiling tank is made of have any effect?
  Also, Chuck what is real TSP ?

Brian
« Last Edit: Oct 6th, 2015 at 9:53pm by Brian »  
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Chuckster
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #7 - Oct 6th, 2015 at 10:42pm
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Use a bent-up brazed stainless tank for boiling. Would not use it for hot blue. Would like comments on Galvanized steel for a boiling tank. Don't think it would hurt.

Tri-sodium phosphate from a paint store. Have seen some labeled TSP that say "Contains no phosphate". Suspicious, have not tried it when I can get the real stuff.
Chuck
« Last Edit: Oct 6th, 2015 at 11:06pm by Chuckster »  
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Seanmp
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #8 - Oct 7th, 2015 at 6:00am
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You've gotten lots of good advice here that will get you off to a good start. I have just a couple extra tips
4130-4140 will have less tendency to give a warm plum colour if you pickle it first. Pickle in a standard solution of 1 part hydrochloric acid and 9 parts water. Hold the barrel vertical over a bucket and just flood the pickle solution onto the outside with a saturated rag. When the steel goes gray rinse it in hot water and card with steel wool. This extra step will also save you a couple turns of bluing. 
The old school degreasing solution is 1 Tbsp of lye per gallon of water. Let it come to a boil to deoxygenated the water before immersing the part. Let it boil 20-30 minutes the rinse in hot tap water while scrubbing with spray 9 or fantastic etc. The lye saponifies any oils trapped in the steel. 
When you do a boil chase the water off with compressed air then hang the part up for a couple minutes before touching it to allow the velvet to set. And only handle a part with velvet while wearing cotton gloves. I buy the 10 pks of cheap cotton garden gloves for this. Throw them in the laundry before using them. 

Have fun. As stated this process isn't difficult but there are tricks
  

Sean
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Mike_Hunter
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #9 - Oct 7th, 2015 at 10:28am
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I don’t have any firsthand experience with galvanized tanks for rust bluing, but, I’m very cautious about using galvanized metals around any finishing processes.  Zinc is the primary metal in most galvanization, it is designed to be sacrificial, meaning that zinc is a softer material than the host material, so it’s designed to react (corrode) before the base metal does. 

Zinc reacts quickly to bases and acids; hot dip bluing solutions are primarily lye which will quickly dissolve the zinc, the zinc will then leave ugly specks on any parts blued in the solution. Zinc also reacts with acids, most rust bluing solutions are acid based. I have not measured the acidity of the water tank after rust bluing, but I suspect it’s mildly acidic.  If so, the acidic water would quickly dissolve the zinc, and cause the same sorts of problems as it would with lye based solutions. 

Historically I’ve used the black iron tanks sold by Brownells, they would generally last me 2-3 years before they corroded completely thru. The last tank that I bought was one of Brownells stainless tanks, I suspect that it will outlast me. 

For degreasing barrels, I’ve used TSP, and it works well. For the past few years I’ve been using a product called “Greased Lightning” find it in most hardware stores and even Wal Mart. The primary ingredient in GL is Sodium Hydroxide (Lye), that and a little Dawn dish soap makes a darn good degreaser. Pure lye is getting harder to find, many folks will use a drain cleaner which contains lye, but, many drain cleaners also contain aluminum flakes; this produces an exothermic reaction which causes heat, which helps break down grease clogs. Unfortunately the suspended aluminum can also attach itself to the base metal of the barrel causing unsightly silver specks on the finished blue. 

For the OP, if this is a onetime project, it might be better (cheaper/easier/better results) to send it out to someone that does rust bluing. The equipment needed, while not overly expensive can exceed the cost of a good rust blue done by a professional. 
  

Mike Hunter
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Chuckster
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #10 - Oct 7th, 2015 at 2:44pm
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Thanks, Mike. Always wondered about using rain gutters and the like for boiling tanks.
Chuck
  
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JS47
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #11 - Oct 7th, 2015 at 10:50pm
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I'd advise you to stay away from anything galvanized.  I once, and only once, used a galvanized nail to insert into a trigger mounting hole to turn the barrel while applying the bluing solution.  I forgot to remove the nail for the next rusting/boiling cycle and ruined the job.  Had to sand it all off and start over.  I use LMF since it's all I can get mailed to Alaska and can't buy the chemicals to make up a solution.  I use a folded piece of cotton shirt to apply.  Soak the cotton the day before, squeezing out any excess, and store it in a baggie.  This distributes the solution evenly.  Too much solution applied will keep you at the job forever.  For the final 2-3 coats your applicator should feel almost dry.  I don't plug the bore and dry it as mentioned above, with a couple of patches and compressed air while holding it with a few folded up paper towels.  I degrease with Zylene, outside 'cause I can't stand the smell.  I use a humidity box and let it rust over night if I want a soft and really durable blue.  There's a learning curved involved but you're getting some good advise here on the board.  Be fearless and forge ahead!

JS
  
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Mike_Hunter
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #12 - Oct 8th, 2015 at 8:25am
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Stockerman
Alaska is where I started making my own rust bluing solution, because it cost so much to get items shipped to AK.

The Niedner formula” is basically Aqua Regia, a mixture of Hydrochloric and Nitric acids. Aqua Regia is used by the gold miners/mining industry as it will dissolve gold. Check with companies that supply the gold industry, there was a company in Anchorage that had all that stuff, when I was there,  Hydrochloric, and Nitric acid was easier to find in AK than the lower 48.
  

Mike Hunter
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marlinguy
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #13 - Oct 8th, 2015 at 10:09am
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This has been a wonderful post! Lots of great information so far!
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Rust Bluing
Reply #14 - Oct 8th, 2015 at 1:28pm
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marlinguy wrote on Oct 8th, 2015 at 10:09am:
This has been a wonderful post! Lots of great information so far!

Absolutely!  I'll probably never do it, but still find it quite interesting. Smiley
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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