Hello Folks

While researching takedown parts for an Winchester 1885 I came across a couple of references to a Pope take-down, one that didn't use the "common" Winchester mechanism.  As far as I can tell from the pictures I've been able to find he simply used a transverse pin through the receiver.

I would like to know more about this method, the details of how it works, why it may have been used instead of the "common" method, and any other information.

Thanks
Foster

The Takedown system with a cross pin used by Pope and other early smiths pre dated Winchesters. It may in fact caused Winchester to create the Coil spring system so they could have the Takedown system that came about. The cross pin system used by the early smiths was usually a tapered pin so that if the owner did take it down a lot of wear would not be an issue. The tapered pin was just driven in a little further and the barrel alignment was maintained. Pope made some rifles that were center and rim fire with the rim fire barrel bore offset so you did not have to change the breech block. I have not seen one of these as I would guess you still had to disassemble the action to install a correct extractor. I have hated the Winchester rim fire extractor for years and consider it a JUNK system and have wondered how their excellent manufacturing engineers let it go by. I own two fine rim fire Schuetzen rifles 
by Arthur Elliot and he used a two piece extractor that I believe was used in Ballard Rifles and is a terrific system. One is a Ballard and the other a M1885 and both have that extractor style and both function flawlessly. By the way the cross pin system was through the receiver and the Barrel threads and so was drilled and reamed as an assembly to be sure of correct alignment. I have wondered for years though how he drilled and reamed the second or third barrel as the drill would have wandered offset with no support because there was already a portion of a hole off to one side. Even today with the far better equipment we have that would be a pain. Well all for now HTH. Regards, FITZ.

Thanks for the thoughts so far . . .

So if some of these schuetzen type rifles came with 2 barrels, one in c/f and one in .22, how often might it have been "normal" to switch barrels - e.g. once a season for practise with a .22 barrel in the "off season" or once a week for some other reason??

Many thanks

Looking at a copy of a WRA catalog (with a handwritten date on it of Sept. 1, 1884) that predates the introduction of the Model 1885 Winchester Single Shot Rifle, on page 11 regarding the Model 1873 22 rimfire (.22 Short and .22 Long) offering, the following paragraph is found:

   "For convienience of carrying, the barrel, fore-arm and magazine, fastened firmly together, are attached to the frame by a taper pin.   By driving out this pin these parts may be separated from the frame, thus making the gun more easily packed in trunk or case."

If you have a copy of George Madis's THE WINCHESTER BOOK, you can see photos of this taper-pin take-down system for the Model 1873 on pages 204 and 205.

My Ballard Schoyen Schuetzen rifle uses the Stevens takedown barrel system. It is drilled and tapped for a setscrew in the bottom of the frame, and a matching hole in the barrel for the setscrew to align with. Works very easy to remove the barrel if needed.