Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) another bogus Ballard? (Read 9488 times)
Rebel
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4292
Location: Rockets and Race Cars
Joined: Mar 9th, 2015
another bogus Ballard?
Jun 4th, 2015 at 5:02pm
Print Post  
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. Let's Go Sonny!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7352
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #1 - Jun 4th, 2015 at 5:29pm
Print Post  
What are your conserns about this rifle? I see the upside down stamping, that is odd but, I think it's a factory mistake.

I have one very much like it #490.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Rebel
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4292
Location: Rockets and Race Cars
Joined: Mar 9th, 2015
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #2 - Jun 4th, 2015 at 5:42pm
Print Post  
It's listed as a #1
  

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. Let's Go Sonny!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4144
Location: Benton  Harbor MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #3 - Jun 4th, 2015 at 6:13pm
Print Post  
what, pray tell, is a "firing ring" on the lever? is this some arcane gun-broker auction house speak?  If so it left off "unusual" and "rare"
  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7352
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #4 - Jun 4th, 2015 at 6:22pm
Print Post  
Sorry, Rebel, I missed the #1.

It is a very interesting rifle to me. It show me that between my #490 and #501, they put the stock bolt, under the butt plate, rather than through it like mine.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Rebel
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4292
Location: Rockets and Race Cars
Joined: Mar 9th, 2015
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #5 - Jun 4th, 2015 at 7:03pm
Print Post  
Very interesting.
Good observation!
I know at Winchester ,we used a rolling dies to impress the writing on barrels and receivers.
You can see the impressions on this rifle are not hand done.
Must have been different dies for each line.
We would have scrapped a mistake like that at USRAC, and the workmanship back when this rifle was made was supposedly better.
Perhaps an employee took this home and made his own from "borrowed" parts.
This supposition might also explain the stock bolt.
« Last Edit: Jun 4th, 2015 at 7:12pm by Rebel »  

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. Let's Go Sonny!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kootne
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 443
Location: Libby, Mt.
Joined: Mar 6th, 2012
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #6 - Jun 4th, 2015 at 7:31pm
Print Post  
Based on the octagon receiver bridge, I am saying it is probably a #2. A #1 typically is a round top, left over Brown action. But I think it is a pretty straight old Ballard. The upside down stamp is kind of unique but I don't think Ballard would have scrapped a receiver over that. Maybe there were 3 wheels on the roll stamp and some body assembled it wrong, flipped it around and #502 and later look like we are used to.  At that point of production they were using what ever parts they could to put rifles out the door.
  

You can't make good decisions without good information.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rebel
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4292
Location: Rockets and Race Cars
Joined: Mar 9th, 2015
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #7 - Jun 4th, 2015 at 7:36pm
Print Post  
I don't think Ballard would have scrapped a receiver over that


Well, we'll never know for sure, but it's very hokey.
The "firing ring" on the lever has a hole in it where it meets the receiver.
Is that common? If not, this might also speak of it's non-factory origin.
« Last Edit: Jun 4th, 2015 at 7:49pm by Rebel »  

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. Let's Go Sonny!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7352
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #8 - Jun 4th, 2015 at 7:50pm
Print Post  
The "firing ring" on the lever has a hole in it where it meets the receiver.
Is that common?

Mine has the same lever (Brown) and a threaded stud to hold the lever up. While mine is still there, it dosen't make the connection anymore and doesn't hold the lever.

My stamps are very faint and it could have been my rifle that caused them to change the stamps Smiley

Frank
« Last Edit: Jun 4th, 2015 at 7:56pm by frnkeore »  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
kootne
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 443
Location: Libby, Mt.
Joined: Mar 6th, 2012
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #9 - Jun 4th, 2015 at 8:09pm
Print Post  
Rebel, in the serial # range of that rifle, it is totally straight.
  

You can't make good decisions without good information.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rebel
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4292
Location: Rockets and Race Cars
Joined: Mar 9th, 2015
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #10 - Jun 4th, 2015 at 9:05pm
Print Post  
Thanks, I'm not up on the intricacies of Ballards, it sure is nice to have this wealth of info to rely on.
I've been expanding my firearms library and recently picked up a copy of Dutcher's book.
I'll be spending some time with it this weekend.
  

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. Let's Go Sonny!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 16408
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #11 - Jun 4th, 2015 at 10:18pm
Print Post  
It's a very early Marlin Ballard, and thus has several features found on Brown Mfg. Ballards, as John Marlin started out assembling Ballards from leftover Brown parts. 
The lever with a "return" on the end is early, as is the locating pin for that lever. Some early Marlin Ballards have both; while some have the lever (with or without hole) and some have the lever, but no pin in the frame. Some even have the hole in the frame for a pin, but no pin installed. 
The #1 Ballard all had round top receivers, and round barrels. The #1 1/2 had round barrels also, but octagon top receivers, and unlike the #1 which was cast; all #1 1/2 are forged receivers.

The gun at auction is a #2, and also has the early style hammer and trigger, which were Brown items too. It has the deep crescent buttplate, but as Frank mentioned, the stock bolt is under the plate. My earliest Ballard is a #4 Perfection in serial #48x, and has the stock bolt under the buttplate.
Often Marlin mixed the spare parts they got when they started production, so there's no cutoff date for certain things. I've seen much later guns have early Brown parts on them. If they found a box of parts, they simply used them up, without wanting to waste any usable parts. Which explains why the upside down stamped receiver got used also.

Frank, I've never seen a pin in the frame that was "threaded"! All that I've observed were smooth. I'd like to see yours on your Ballard. Wonder if the threaded pin is original, or something added later?

PS-The seller mentions the changeover from JM Marlin to Marlin Firearms Co. as 1876-1880, which is incorrect. JM Marlin was the company John Marlin started in 1870 to build handguns, and the change didn't happen until 1881 when he began making lever action repeaters. He incorporated at that point, and the company name changed to Marlin Firearms Co.
« Last Edit: Jun 4th, 2015 at 10:23pm by marlinguy »  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kootne
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 443
Location: Libby, Mt.
Joined: Mar 6th, 2012
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #12 - Jun 4th, 2015 at 11:13pm
Print Post  
You know that line of the stamp that is upside down is the patent for the reversible firing pin. Maybe some smart Alec at the factory thought it would be funny to reverse the stamp also. Of course, it would have to have been an apprentice, and I can visualize the pressure cooker reaction of the old world journeyman supervisor when he got caught. That would be the story I would tell if it was my rifle.
  

You can't make good decisions without good information.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7352
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #13 - Jun 5th, 2015 at 12:20am
Print Post  
Vall,
Your right as usual Smiley Not sure why I thought it was threaded but, I even had a mental picture of it. Here is the "real" picture Smiley And a better picture of my butt plate.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 16408
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: another bogus Ballard?
Reply #14 - Jun 5th, 2015 at 9:43am
Print Post  
I've never owned a Marlin Ballard with the Brown style buttplate that had the bolt through the buttplate. Seen them on occasion, but just didn't work out to buy them. That's a pretty cool old Ballard Frank!
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint