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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Primer set back (Read 11130 times)
calledflyer
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #15 - May 7th, 2015 at 12:04pm
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Lumpy Grits is onto the problem if that Hornet chamber is like one I had. I think the very thin Hornet Brass is shoved up until the primer fires then adhering into the chamber wall with the back of the head away from the breach block. Thus, primer set back to fill the space.
Reload that bunch of cases and shoot 'em again. If it works like I suppose it will, the problem is solved. I had the issue in a little Sako Hornet, and it worked best to fire form the cases without a bullet, using good ol' grits for filler and small dab of fast powder.  I found this the best way after sectioning a case fired for the first time with a normal load was nearly ready to suffer a head separation. The best solution simply blew out the shoulder and left the base about unstretched. I wish I still had that little rifle, because it shot pretty well. Still have a bunch of brass if I ever get another. And, finally, we can often learn a lot from a sectioned case.  Pat
  
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Seanmp
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #16 - May 7th, 2015 at 1:39pm
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chipmaker wrote on May 7th, 2015 at 11:38am:

If the breach block face is perfectly flat, I'd expect the primer to remain flush with the rim, even if it was pushed back. Maybe, in filing the breach block face, after bushing the firing pin hole, I've somehow dished out the area around the firing pin hole.

Otto

This is a possibility but not the only possibility.
Consider that at the moment of initial firing the case walls balloon out and grip the chamber preventing the case from sliding backwards to rest fully against the breach block. In fact the action of swelling the case walls will actually contract the length a small amount. Thereby giving the room to squirt the primer or separate the case
  

Sean
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38_Cal
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #17 - May 7th, 2015 at 11:43pm
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Been lurking for quite a while, not much to say, but this one got to me.  What action did you start your project with?  If it's a rimfire, how did you convert to centerfire?  Did you drop the block by lowering the ears on the remains of the lever?  Your photo looks like the firing pin is not hitting on center, so if your block's face is not square with the bore, you could have a slight angle on the block to the case head, allowing the primer to flow back.  Headspace could still be good, but the angle gives room for the primer to move on you.  When you pull your barrel, measure from the front face of the action to the block to see if it's even top to bottom.  You can make up a tool to lap it square to the barrel threads by using a stub of barrel drilled/reamed out to .500" and a brass lap at .499".
  

David Kaiser
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.22-5-40
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #18 - May 8th, 2015 at 1:18am
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I have an early non-import Anschutz .22 Hornet..that thing used to eat brass..and showed the same primer set-back..yet headspace checked out perfect.  Finally determined the made-for rimfire action with it's bolt root locking into action was springy.  My Shillen barreled Sharps Borchardt on the other hand has been using the same RWS Hornet brass for 10+ years..primers stay flush.  Though I would have thought a Martini would have a stiffer lock-up?
  
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #19 - May 8th, 2015 at 6:30am
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Travelor wrote on May 6th, 2015 at 8:28am:
My experience says the set back is caused by too little pressure.  /

Same experience. Very plausible explanation. I know of 4 Marlin 1893s that set primers back when shot low pressure loads. When i jack up the load on mine, primers stay put. 
Too much headspace is also plausible. 
  
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bnice
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #20 - May 8th, 2015 at 8:11am
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In order to have a primer set back you have to have a gap between face of the bolt and the base of the brass. Angled bolt, rim cut to deep, thin rims, breech plug not flush, etc. something is allowing a gap. Is your head space gage using rim thickness variation or is it off of the shoulder ( not correct in my book). Can you measure the chamber cut for the rim
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #21 - May 8th, 2015 at 11:37am
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As I mentioned before...reload the cases WITHOUT full length sizing. Then see how they do. If it's a chamber issue, or minor headspace issue, the cases have fire formed themselves, and neck sizing will allow them to retain their shape, and later reloads wont have this primer issue.
  

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chipmaker
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #22 - May 8th, 2015 at 1:53pm
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Thanks for all the suggestions regarding this problem.
The simple solution to testing whether a reloaded fired case would solve the problem would be to pull a couple of bullets from unfired cases and reuse the powder and bullet in the fired cases. Unfortunately, despite a determined effort, I can't get the bullet out of the case with my inertial bullet puller. So it will be a little while before I can locate a few bullets. I don't know much about reloading, so if anyone has any hints about removing bullets from unfired cases, I'd be interested. 
38 Cal
The donor action for the side lever experiment was an old Egyptian GP shotgun action complete with three prong firing pin and oversized barrel thread. The barreling and eventual making of the rifle was really an after thought, using parts left over from other projects. The initial attempt to make a side lever Martini, using the same type action, was unsuccessful and I converted that action back to an under lever action. The first attempt used a 32-20 barrel and showed no evidence of primer set back. The problem was in the side lever overcoming the heavy mainspring pressure. The solution to the cocking problem required the making of a new mainspring with slightly less pressure.
The current plan is to try using the fired cases, once I've located a few bullets. If this doesn't work, I'll re-barrel the rifle using a low pressure round and recheck firing pin protrusion/retraction, breach block face squareness, and side lever pivot pin movement at that time.
Otto
  
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chipmaker
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #23 - May 11th, 2015 at 4:13pm
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I reloaded several fired cases without resizing but still had a bit of primer set back.
Since the cartridge was head-spaced off the rim and the headspace gauge is also based off the rim, I don't see how there could be any forward movement of the cartridge on firing.
Since Egyptian GP actions have a  large non standard thread, I didn't make a truing fixture to polish the breach block face, so the breach face may not be perfectly flat.
Also, because of the age and abuse that these actions have been subjected, there could well be some spring at the lever pin on firing.
Since I don't want a rifle that won't shoot factory ammo, my plan is to re-barrel the rifle with a low pressure cartridge.
Thanks to all who participated in this discussion.
Otto
  
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Cat_Whisperer
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #24 - May 11th, 2015 at 4:22pm
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Is not the normal sequence thus:

firing pin pushed primer/ctg forward

primer ignites, pushing primer back

powder burns at some pressure, pushing ctg back or not depending on pressure developed.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #25 - May 11th, 2015 at 5:06pm
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chipmaker wrote on May 11th, 2015 at 4:13pm:
I reloaded several fired cases without resizing but still had a bit of primer set back.
Since the cartridge was head-spaced off the rim and the headspace gauge is also based off the rim, I don't see how there could be any forward movement of the cartridge on firing.
Since Egyptian GP actions have a  large non standard thread, I didn't make a truing fixture to polish the breach block face, so the breach face may not be perfectly flat.
Also, because of the age and abuse that these actions have been subjected, there could well be some spring at the lever pin on firing.
Since I don't want a rifle that won't shoot factory ammo, my plan is to re-barrel the rifle with a low pressure cartridge.
Thanks to all who participated in this discussion.
Otto


Yes, a rimmed cartridge is spaced off the rim. But the cartridge will form itself to the chamber it's fired in. And if there is some excess headspace, the cartridge will back itself out of the chamber as pressure builds. So the shape of the case will be that of a cartridge slightly backed out, which will set the shoulder forward on a bottleneck case.
So just reloading the case the next time, and not full length resizing, will leave the case as it formed on the first firing. Thus if there is a slight headspace issue, the case wont be driven forward as the firing pin strikes it, so it wont do the back and forth movement of a fully resized case.
I've done this on a few old lever action repeaters that backed primers from too much headspace, and found afterwards that they no longer backed primers out.
  

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Seanmp
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #26 - May 12th, 2015 at 8:28am
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I was told by some fellas back when I was having Hornet issues that re clambering to 22 Hornet Ackley Improved would eliminate the issue. And you could still fire factory ammo. 

I didn't try it because the solution  Marlinguy is suggesting worked fine for me.
  

Sean
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