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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Primer set back (Read 11127 times)
chipmaker
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Primer set back
May 5th, 2015 at 7:36pm
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Attached is a photo of a fired case alongside an unfired 22 Hornet round.
 
The primer set back wouldn't be a problem in most single shot actions but in my side lever Martini, it's enough to make opening the action difficult.
Has anyone had a similar experience with PPU 22 Hornet ammo?
Otto
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #1 - May 5th, 2015 at 10:18pm
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Haven't used that brand of ammo, butt primer setback is often a sign of excess headspace in a gun.
  

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JLouis
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #2 - May 5th, 2015 at 11:41pm
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Agree with Marlinguy on it being an excessive headspace issue.
  

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boats
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #3 - May 6th, 2015 at 4:36am
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Agree on headspace, but try different ammo.  Recent shortages hav brought sub standard into the U.S. simple switch may fix the problem.

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Travelor
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #4 - May 6th, 2015 at 8:28am
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My experience says the set back is caused by too little pressure.  I have seen this on many rifles when trying to get a pow pressure/noise load.

Try firing a cased that has been primed only and see if you can duplicate your primer set back issue/
  
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Cat_Whisperer
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #5 - May 6th, 2015 at 9:44am
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Measure the setback.  That will give you an indication of what the head-space is.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #6 - May 6th, 2015 at 10:10am
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Travelor wrote on May 6th, 2015 at 8:28am:
My experience says the set back is caused by too little pressure.  I have seen this on many rifles when trying to get a pow pressure/noise load.

Try firing a cased that has been primed only and see if you can duplicate your primer set back issue/


My experience with reduced loads and setback have shown when it's caused by too low a velocity, I usually get blowback around the outside of the case near the neck. These cases look pretty clean (unless they were cleaned after shooting) and don't show signs of low pressure.
If these same cases were simply neck sized, and not full length sized; they may not back the primers out again. I've had a few older guns with minor headspace issue, and found that once fired, and not full length resized, they had no more issues in that same gun.
  

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Chuckster
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #7 - May 6th, 2015 at 11:03am
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Had a similar problem with a Cadet Martini Hornet. Dovetail bushed the firing pin slightly thicker and problem went away.
Chuck
  
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #8 - May 6th, 2015 at 11:10am
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Have your headspace ck'd before firing any more ammo.
LG
  

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chipmaker
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #9 - May 6th, 2015 at 12:53pm
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Thanks to all who responded to my question.
Headspace was the first thing that I checked and the no-go gage of my set and a friends set won't allow the breach to close.
The primer protrusion is hard to measure but seems to range from .002" to .005".
All cartridges were PPU factory ammo.
Since the project was to convert a standard Martini to side lever function, I used what was available in putting the rifle together. The barrel is a take off Ruger 22 Hornet barrel and the firing pin was bushed and reduced in diameter to .070". Although the side lever has poor mechanical advantage compared to the original lever, there was no problem with extraction in preliminary testing using just a primer. I don't remember seeing any primer set back with just the primer but will retest this to be sure.
Two 5 shot groups were fired and the hang up on lowering the breach block occurred on about three occasions. It looked as if the primer was catching on the upper edge of the firing pin hole. The first two hang ups were cleared by pushing the breach block down by hand while the lever was lowered but one hang up required hitting the primer with a small punch.
A practical solution would be to rebarrel the rifle using a low pressure cartridge and I may do this anyway but I'm puzzled by the primer set back.
Otto 

  
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #10 - May 6th, 2015 at 1:05pm
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Ck to see if that ammo is made to the correct size specs.
Measure a case, before and after firing.
Do a chamber cast.
LG
  

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bnice
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #11 - May 7th, 2015 at 8:09am
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Have you compared rim thickness to other brass
  
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #12 - May 7th, 2015 at 11:05am
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What your seeing here could simply be an issue that the Hornet gurus talk about a lot. Yes it's a "headspace" problem but one with a different stripe. The Hornet technically headspaces off the rim but most of the gurus say that many prefer to headspace off the shoulder.
Your only seeing primer setback. What I saw was separated cases on the first firing. Go-No Go said the chamber was fine. 

From what I understand there is a bit of known deviation in the shoulder position and the ammo manufacturers lean to the minimum so that the cartridge will fit in everything. 
Once the shoulder has been formed to your chamber everything is fine unless you resize the cases...This is where I made my mistake. I gave the new brass an initial sizing to spec. In the end I only resize when extraction becomes difficult and I ensure the shoulder does not get resized at all.
  

Sean
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chipmaker
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #13 - May 7th, 2015 at 11:38am
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BN and LG. Thanks for your suggestions.
I rechecked whether a case with just the primer would push back and it didn't.
I checked the case dimensions against COW and a Hornady 22 Hornet and they are correct including the rim thickness (.062").
Finally, I fired a Hornady 22 Hornet (35 gr V-Max) and it too had a little primer push back (.002).
If the breach block face is perfectly flat, I'd expect the primer to remain flush with the rim, even if it was pushed back. Maybe, in filing the breach block face, after bushing the firing pin hole, I've somehow dished out the area around the firing pin hole.
Unless someone has another explanation, I'll stone the breach block face flat, when I change the barrel.
Otto

  
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chipmaker
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Re: Primer set back
Reply #14 - May 7th, 2015 at 11:55am
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Sean
Thanks for your response. I hadn't thought about rim dimension deviation, as a cause of "headspace" problems but it is easy to test.
I like the looks of the little 22 Hornet and will try some reloaded cartridges before changing the barrel.
Otto
  
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