Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly (Read 19427 times)
Chuckster
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online



Posts: 2227
Location: Colorado
Joined: May 15th, 2008
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #15 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 10:34am
Print Post  
Looks like a real good start. How did the hardness turn out when tested with a file?
Chuck
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
craigd
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2045
Location: midwest
Joined: Feb 22nd, 2009
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #16 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 12:29pm
Print Post  
If you get the chance to hardness test, take advantage of it, not many folks get to do that. Maybe, before and afters on known samples. Some of the darkness of the overall color may be scale from oxygen exposure while the part was around the upper end of the temperature range it was at. Thanks for showing follow up pictures.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
corerftech
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 259
Location: Memphis, TN
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2014
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #17 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 1:57pm
Print Post  
After reviewing my video of the quench I believe my furnace is running a bit hot. Using steel temp color charts, I believe the kiln may be 200 degrees hot.

I did the test at night and really if the crucible tried to fall to a "red" color Id not see the red. Not sure how the color charts are calibrated, in daylight or not. Everything in total darkness looks bright orange. 

From the video I have a bright orange crucible in total darkness.
At quench its simply orange.
A couple min after its dark orange and almost showing no color. A minute after that or so the crucible was not showing any color and never was it ever red in hue. It goes from bright orange to dark/no color in a couple minutes with no red stages. I have to be seeing the orange due to working in the dark at night.

Ill need to get another thermometer and calibrate the furnace.

Im trying to pull pics off the video to post.


FOLLOWUP: I downloaded the ipad video to my main machine and reviewed. I have a RED diner style ketchup bottle, squeeze type, I use for way oil. You know the restaurant type. ITS RED, not orange,RED. In the video it looks orange, as orange as my crucible.
I think I am OK on temps. Ill still try to get a laser temp off of it next time I run it to verify.
« Last Edit: Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:15pm by corerftech »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
corerftech
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 259
Location: Memphis, TN
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2014
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #18 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 4:25pm
Print Post  
File test shows file just skids off. Darned hard. As hard as my RB breach block was before annealing. File skid off it like a diamond then too. The corner of the file, not flat.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seanmp
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 294
Location: Land O Lakes
Joined: May 19th, 2014
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #19 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 10:36pm
Print Post  
Hey I think thats an admirable attempt.
The fact that you got colour at 1350 is excellent. Not just grey and blistered blue.

I for one value your efforts and the time it takes to post them.

So unfortunately there are a lot of variables to test.
Air quantity and quality
Shielding
Drop height
Water. I think your on the right track using rainwater. but there are the additives. Ive seen several references that suggest workmen were encouraged to pee in the quench barrel at one company.....I havent the foggiest what that does to the water.

As well in my own fooling around I found out quickly that highly polished steel shows the colour more vividly. By polished I mean polished on a buffer
  

Sean
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BP
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8039
Location: Westside
Joined: Aug 27th, 2006
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #20 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 11:22pm
Print Post  
Seanmp wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 10:36pm:
Ive seen several references that suggest workmen were encouraged to pee in the quench barrel at one company.....I havent the foggiest what that does to the water.



Salt from your peter...  nitrates can be leached from urine.

  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
corerftech
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 259
Location: Memphis, TN
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2014
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #21 - Apr 10th, 2015 at 1:19am
Print Post  
I broke down and rust removed the receiver then polished to 320, Polish took very little time. The brownells really works well at giving you a white bit of metal.

I then prepped a stevens 107b receiver. It was very vividly cased in protected areas, after I simple greened it in ultrasonic tank the real colors came into view below the trigger guard area and the tang section. So I saw what a real savage stevens case looked like and mine was crap respectively. 

I believe my furnace was about 50-100 degrees over temp, partially confirmed tonight by me adding a 32 deg C offset and measuring a crucible at 500 C. The crucible at center mass was officially at 501 C, my thermocouple(s) both new and old are measuring the same voltage but that voltage is 2mv lower minimum than the core temp of the oven.
Tomorrow I have a long probe digital arriving and will measure the center temp via the peep hole for absolute confirmation. I'll be able to measure all the way to full temp with it and not top out at 500. Plus accuracy will be significantly higher than the laser measure used tonight. I feel pretty good that my temps were 100 or less high. Worst case is I normalized at 1725 instead of 1625. Grain growth is a possibility but I'll pray tonight that I avoided it. 

Tomorrow I will degrease the receiver, pack it again and this time will leave the water at a very subtle roll. As with my audio gear I have designed, one param at a time only can be changed or the test is not valid. Old water, only 1 hour of aeration pre quench, low roll at quench and I will be able to raise the water level to within 1/2'inch of crucible. I will lower my temp or rather I will HAVE lowered my temp nearly 100 degrees. My target will be still 1350 but I'll hit 1350 dead on for sure this time. Officially the one param changed is the water bubbles and as a byproduct of calibration, certainly a 100 degree F drop in process temp. I've seen stuff done at 1400 using all brownells product and it's looks superb. 
I'm going to stick with the high temp for this run, I'll back off 100 degrees on the next run and try high and low water turbulence. I might as well experiment. My buddy is going to do hardness tests for me. I'm also going to cut the receiver in half giving me two test samples. Cya tomorrow night.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
corerftech
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 259
Location: Memphis, TN
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2014
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #22 - Apr 11th, 2015 at 8:52pm
Print Post  
Success pictures forthcoming! Needless to say Im excited enough to post w/o pics since the parts are drawing right now in the oven.

Im ecstatic!

Running a second receiver with ABSOLUTE STILL WATER, I had minor roll on the first quench today. New part, never been touched, Stevens 107B SG receiver. Hoping for darker blues. Still no drop control, no orientation control, no shielding. The Stevens will get quenched in about 2 hours, photo shot before temper for posting. Ill probably do it over unless I get absolute perfection first shot.
I noticed that there is a correlation with color density not from shielding but from the vapor caused byt sharp edges. The receiver butt end has a recess. That recess has a lip that was first to hit the water. The vapor from the lip disturbed the quench as the vapor blew away the water. The recess has magnificent color. With the traditional light grey, near white perimeter. I believe the roll that I had going broke up the balance of the vapor effect, which from a case hardening aspect, is great. From the color aspect, not so great. Im trying to get to the color without having specific shielding employed, as I prefer the random colors. I got nice pinks, reds, oranges in the blue pools. But the pools are only dark blue on the edges, then the pool goes through the rainbow to the center area of the pool.


Anyway, pretty happy I pulled an awesome piece out of the water on only the SECOND TRY. I may just treat myself to a bowl of ice cream tonight!

Forgot to mention, someone posted the dark was probably scale from high temp on the first try. Common sense indicates that I shoudl have noticed the steel color temp as it exited the oven, but in the heat of the moment one may have an occassional oversight, by about 200degrees F!!!. Clearly I was overheated. That led me to invest in a long TC and digital pyrometer to backup the PID/TC. Sure enough first to to 500'C I found a 32'C error too hot. Second run, same error. Entered into PID the correction, then ran to 730'C, found it metering in center of oven with an empty crucible at 755'C. When, I was approx 85'C too hot. I throttled the oven to a proper 1345F at the crucible for the successful run.
« Last Edit: Apr 11th, 2015 at 8:58pm by corerftech »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
corerftech
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 259
Location: Memphis, TN
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2014
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #23 - Apr 11th, 2015 at 10:35pm
Print Post  
Shotgun receiver part two: the do-over

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)



This was modest aeration during the quench, second quench on the water, 1350F, with a very fast rate of process, 1 hour soak, 1 inch headspace to quench surface. No shielding, no drop controls. And no extra parts to create better shielding wired to it.
400 grit polish only, by hand. 1 hour draw at 350F. Dipped in Brownells water displacing oil.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
jfeldman
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1079
Location: Imperial Beach, Ca
Joined: Nov 5th, 2005
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #24 - Apr 11th, 2015 at 11:40pm
Print Post  
Corerftech, been following this thread with great interest.  Thanks much for the posts and congratulations on some GREAT colors!

Regards, Joe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
craigd
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2045
Location: midwest
Joined: Feb 22nd, 2009
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #25 - Apr 12th, 2015 at 12:30am
Print Post  
Way to go, thanks for the follow up pictures.

You may be aware of it, but if not, there's a Dr. Gaddy article on doublegunshop. Look under the DG Journal, index entries from past issues, volume 7 issue 4. It may help with what's going on and why, and maybe some fine tuning.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
corerftech
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 259
Location: Memphis, TN
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2014
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #26 - Apr 12th, 2015 at 12:36am
Print Post  
Glad someone is reading, not looking for any accolades but I think its darned interesting and an interesting read is often better than the Obits. My wife really has no interest in it, its not music which is her lifework. My kids say "great dad", well one does. Another help and likes it but hes a lego kid and lego kids build stuff and this is stuff. 

Final pics of last quench of the day, Stevens 107B.

TOTALLY STAGNANT WATER!! I forgot I did polish this one to 600 on exterior surfaces. It made a difference for sure. 800 or 1000 will be attempted w/o using a buffer on some test plates. I believe from the recipe and gleaning information from those before me, I have got a tactic to produce the rainbows or the electric blue pools as I desire (I cant overturn Gods hand in the act, there is going to be significant variables fro each) but I believe from the few tests I will be able to predict where and what will be produced.


The tang is bare almost due to it FORGING the proper turbulence in advance of the action body. Had there been some bits like trigger, hammer, TG, etc strapped in that area, STAGNANT would have been very good. Since I was after verifying a theory, adding those devices would have offset the test. 


It aint perfect, but those blues are ELECTRIC. Stunning in person. Wish the metal was higher polish, that would avoid the need for laquer, etc. I feel like the stevens here is a nice mix of the rainbows and the blue pools. It has it all, just not quite enough on the tang section. I think Ill keep both of these specimens for posterity as my first successful attempts. Ill work on scrap steel from here on out, unless a buddy brings me some demilled actions for real world work. Next week....... I will move forward. Higher polish, shielding, predicting effect and maybe side bubbles!!! Like a gauntlet.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2015 at 12:42am by corerftech »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seanmp
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 294
Location: Land O Lakes
Joined: May 19th, 2014
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #27 - Apr 12th, 2015 at 12:53pm
Print Post  
Very excellent effort. And nice colours too.

Fear not a lot of people are watching this with great interest. And you've inspired me to give it another go. I have a Belgium Double sitting here just crying to have the CC redone.

I've ordered another pail of wood from Brownell's(still have lots of bone). The added variable on my part is I have a gas fired oven. A homemade job that sits outside. It's served me well for any case hardening I need to do around here and my total investment is $150 rather than $2K+
Then only downside is I have to sit right there for the duration to regulate the fire Undecided
  

Sean
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
corerftech
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 259
Location: Memphis, TN
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2014
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #28 - Apr 12th, 2015 at 2:10pm
Print Post  
Sean, I'm cheap. I'm using royal oak, my grilling/Bbq go to fuel.
I love royal oak. I make the best tri tip on a falling apart indirect grill and a rub I bastardized from the net.

I digress. That Brownells char is boo koo expensive. But it's fractioned and well prepared. Mine I have to crush on a bucket, sift, crush, sift, make a small dust cloud, blow nose to evacuate the black goo.... Then do over. Then my back hurts from stooping, then I complain to my wife about the sore back....

It's cheap though!!! LOL

Glad I have inspired someone to be inclined to try something.

Being cheap I hunted down a source for bone char.... On the cheap. 
I got 50 lbs locally, I think 20 mesh, lab grade from Brazil. On Ingleqood, Ca there is a filter and carbon company, name escapes me now.
I got it, Anthraxite Filter Media company! A little gal will answer the phone and hook you up.
50 lbs equals two absolutely stuffed 5 gal buckets after transfer.
Cheap is relative. I got like 2x brownells value or better, But again I'm cheap!!

Food for thought for anyone considering having a go.

My oven is a converted pottery kiln. A Vcella 16in cubed, Craigslist buy. I paid like 125 for it. Removed the analog controls, installed a thermomart dta-48 pid with new tc and twin ss relays. It's 220v 1ph, will go easily 2500f at top end. Pretty cheap, but my meter spins pretty good.

I did have to invest in a long Tc probe and a secondary pyrometer. Now I can verify at the crucible my temp on the money. I bought 2.5 (yes that's 2 and a half) full brownells bluing systems from a failed gunsmith. I kept 1.5. Along with I got all the chemicals in quantity, buffing wheels and compound. For the life of me I can't find where I put the sausage tubes of compound!!! I wanted to buff a piece and I think I may have seriously tossed them or something. They are expensive!!

Again I digress. Frequently .
« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2015 at 2:19pm by corerftech »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
oughtsix
Global Moderator
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1268
Location: Columbus
Joined: May 31st, 2009
Re: Color case hardening rolling block parts, properly
Reply #29 - Apr 12th, 2015 at 4:35pm
Print Post  
Am planning to try this in future,   Been following with much interest.  Very informative and good  story........even the digressions
Thanks,

-06
  

Life Member ASSRA, OGCA &  TSGC
I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters........ Frank Lloyd Wright
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Send TopicPrint