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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Greenhill Graph (Read 23298 times)
LRF
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Greenhill Graph
Dec 14th, 2014 at 10:31am
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George Babits
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #1 - Dec 15th, 2014 at 9:33am
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Can you find a sister chart for 45 and 50 caliber bullets?

George
  
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SSShooter
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #2 - Dec 15th, 2014 at 11:28am
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Nicely done. Thank you.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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coljimmy
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #3 - Dec 15th, 2014 at 12:37pm
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Is velocity a factor, i.e. 223 vs 22WCF?

James
  
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JackHughs
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #4 - Dec 15th, 2014 at 7:39pm
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Velocity is an insignificant factor at blackpowder and schuetzen MV's.

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JackHughs
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #5 - Dec 16th, 2014 at 10:59am
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rafter3c wrote on Dec 16th, 2014 at 9:54am:

Velocity is an insignificant factor at blackpowder and schuetzen MV's.

JackHughs 

Hello Jack,
  Is your statement in reference to both O/H and B/R shooting?   Ken


Good morning Ken,

I hope my response was on-topic as it only addressed gyroscopic stability of a projectile at MV's under 1500 fps - which remains the same regardless of shooting style.

Schuetzen MV's range from approximately 1300 fps to 1500 fps.  Within this narrow range, if the twist rate is too slow to achieve gyroscopic stability, one can't compensate by raising MV.  The general formula for gyroscopic stability (the one in the ballistics texts), does include a velocity factor.  However, the formula requires very large increases in MV to compensate for small deficiencies in twist rate. 

If I missed the point, I apologize.

JackHughs         


  

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JackHughs
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #6 - Dec 16th, 2014 at 1:07pm
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rafter3c wrote on Dec 16th, 2014 at 12:19pm:
Jack,
  Thanks for your informative reply. Wanting to add the .338" barrel and looking for the best all around twist rate. I have talked with, I am sure, a mutual friend of ours on this subject. Your post fit right in. I feel the 245gr. lead bullet is a good fit for the 33-47 but getting the shooters what they want  and what will work best is the question. I think the 1-16 gives me a bit more MV and less recoil than the 1-14. So far the 1-15 seems to be the best solution. I will go in the shop next thursady and talk with Al in regards to finishing 10 more, on the last run of, Borchardt actions and adding the 33cal. barrel. I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Ken Lewis 


Hi Ken,

The rule-of-thumb is to choose the slowest twist rate that will achieve gyroscopic stability at the muzzle.  Faster twist rates actually exacerbate the effects of imperfections in bullets, rifling, and crown.   

As the bullet moves through the barrel, it is constrained to rotate about the "center of form."  When the bullet exits the muzzle, it then rotates about the "center of mass."  If the bullet is perfectly balanced, the center of mass will lie on the center of form.

However, if the bullet is out of balance (due to internal defects or uneven rifling) the center of mass will not lie on the center of form and the bullet will physically jump off-axis when it leaves the muzzle.  The faster the bullet is rotating, the greater the jump.

This "jump" increases initial dynamic instability.  Among other things, greater initial dynamic instability degrades the "effective" ballistic coefficient of the bullet which, in turn, increases lag time between muzzle and target.  As lag time increases, the effect of wind on the bullet increases.

So, that's the theory.  I'm not a barrel maker and I've never owned a .33 caliber rifle so I have no practical experience to draw on. 

JackHughs
  

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7groove
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #7 - Dec 17th, 2014 at 11:26am
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Jack - Well said, your explanation is spot on, actual ballistic testing  confirms the theory when a correctly proportioned bullet design is used.
7groove

  
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LRF
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #8 - Dec 18th, 2014 at 5:24pm
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George,
The graph is one I created in Excel so I can add 45 and 50 if you need. Its fairly easy.
  
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George Babits
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #9 - Dec 18th, 2014 at 7:45pm
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That would be great if you could do that.  For some reason I can't pring the previous graph you posted.  If you do put together one for 45 and 50 calibers, is there some way you could email them to me as an attachment.  I could probably print them then.

Thanks and Merry Christmas,
George
  
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LRF
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #10 - Dec 18th, 2014 at 11:04pm
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George, PM me
  
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Hank45
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #11 - Dec 19th, 2014 at 6:35am
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can you give me the the reading for .28 caliber bullet? Thanks Hank45
  
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Sendaro
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #12 - Dec 19th, 2014 at 9:03am
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LRF, 

Could you add the .25 cal bullet to this chart for us quarter bore shooter? 

               Thanks, Sendaro
  
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #13 - Dec 20th, 2014 at 9:06am
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Can this be made a "sticky". Great, quick reference for all.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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LRF
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Re: Greenhill Graph
Reply #14 - Dec 20th, 2014 at 9:25am
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SSShooter,
If you are asking me I do not know how to do that.
I would be willing to share the Excel file calculator if someone could tell me how to share on the forum. However, I don't want a bunch of PM's from folks asking me to send it to them, please.
If we could share the calculator itself and you have any skills with an Excel file then anyone could modify it to what ever caliber or bullet dia or twist they wanted.
  
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